Two women in Revelation 17

[Douggg]

Typical distraction tactic when asked for fact check.

You are clearly avoiding to do what I asked to confirm your claim. Please provide a Scripture where the spirit of a physical serpent has sold out to Satan. If you can’t, admit your mistake. You can’t compare this with someone else in Bible!

Come on man, a spirit of an ANIMAL sold out to Satan?! Where do you find that in Scripture?

The term "sold out" is not in the bible. You will find the reason the serpent did what he did, in that Satan offered the kingdoms of this world to Jesus.

Do you equal the intellect ability of a grass hopper to that of a chimpanzee? The serpent beast was able to reason and speak.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The term "sold out" is not in the bible. You will find the reason the serpent did what he did, in that Satan offered the kingdoms of this world to Jesus

You need to deal with what YOU said:

“The spirit of the literal beast called a serpent in Genesis, who apparently sold out to Satan, to get Adam and Eve to sin.”

You believe that the spirit of a physical animal can be “sold out” to Satan so he can use it’s body to deceive Eve. That is called speculation. Period.

I had enough fun with you for the day. Go back to your defective chart and add more speculations to it.

Good night!

 

[Douggg]

“The spirit of the literal beast called a serpent in Genesis, who apparently sold out to Satan, to get Adam and Eve to sin.”

You believe that the spirit of a physical animal can be “sold out” to Satan so he can use it’s body to deceive Eve. That is called speculation. Period.

Yes, get some rest because you are misrepresenting what I wrote.

The serpent who sold out to Satan to get Adam and Eve to sin - was a living creature at the time. After that creature later died, it's soul, a disembodied spirit, went to the bottomless pit for what it had done.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes, get some rest because you are misrepresenting what I wrote.

The serpent who sold out to Satan to get Adam and Eve to sin - was a living creature at the time. After that creature later died, it's soul, a disembodied spirit, went to the bottomless pit for what it had done.

Ok people, this must be one of the most amusing speculations I have ever heard without Scripture support whatsoever! A soul of an animal went to bottomless pit?! Okay...

 

[Douggg]

Ok people, this must be one of the most amusing speculations I have ever heard without Scripture support whatsoever! A soul of an animal went to bottomless pit?! Okay...

What is funny is that you cannot recognize the difference in the intellect level of a worm compared to someone's pet cat.

How many creatures that you know of that can speak, and interact with the same reasoning as humans have with humans? The serpent did those things. All the beasts were not created equal.

 

[TribulationSigns]

What is funny is that you cannot recognize the difference in the intellect level of a worm compared to someone's pet cat.

Huh? Is it God's requirement for us Christians to know this? Is this found in Scripture? Seriously?!

How many creatures that you know of that can speak, and interact with the same reasoning as humans have with humans? The serpent did those things. All the beasts were not created equal.

(Rolling Eyes).

Let's see, you think that some animals have some intelligence that they can speak and have the same reasoning with other animals about Jesus Christ? Did Christ go to the Cross for the animals too, humm?

Scripture, please. No more speculation nonsense coming out of your mouth, Doug!

 

[Douggg]

Let's see, you think that some animals have some intelligence that they can speak and have the same reasoning with other animals about Jesus Christ? Did Christ go to the Cross for the animals too, humm?

Scripture, please. No more speculation nonsense coming out of your mouth, Doug!

I did not say some animals have that ability. I was only speaking about that one specific serpent beast. That the serpent beast spoke with Eve and displayed reasoning is in the scriptures.

Do you really think it was Satan who was cursed to crawl on his belly through the dust the rest of his life?

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Do you really think it is Satan in the bottomless pit?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

_______________________________________________________

For some reason, you are not making the spiritual discernment between the serpent beast that spoke to Eve, displayed reasoning, cursed to crawl on its belly in the dust for what it did, and Satan having been in the garden of Eden, and called the Devil and Satan, that old serpent - with who is in the bottomless pit.

 

[Matt5]

I am going to have a little fun with your chart. I will respond based on your literal approach to Revelation:

1.) You believe the Vatican is a Great harlot that sits upon many waters.

Last I hear that the Vatican sits on Apostolic Palace in Vatican City somewhere in Rome, 31km from the nearest sea which is one water. Okay!

2.) You said that there were no crowns upon the heads and horns during the first century with first 6 heads represented the six Roman leaders, yet when 7th head as "little horn" show up some 1,800 years later, ALL heads AND the horns suddenly have crowns despite the fact that the first 6 emperors had long died? Okay!

3.) You said that Rome is (or sit upon) seven mountains? Ahem... do you know what is God's definition for the word, mountain, in Scripture? Do you realize that the beast has seven kingdoms? Not literal mountains?

4.) You said that the ten horns will destroy the harlot with Fire? Hold on, do you realize there are something more to the judgement of the harlot? You need to read the Scripture:

Revelation 17:16-17 KJV
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Now tell me. Exactly who are the Ten Horns? If you think she is Vatican City, then tell us how will the ten horns make her naked? desolate? Her flesh being eaten? And burn with fire? Take your time and explain these biblically!

Note: I am pulling in information from Christian, Jewish and Islamic prophecy, and the news. Maybe this is all wrong, but nevertheless it is interesting.

While I agree with your arguments, I will explain just how Rome could get burned with fire: nuclear terrorism. Allah has promised Muslims the conquest of Rome. Muslims talk about this regularly. Rome is currently a target for Muslims.

Jewish prophecy:

Yoma 10a in the Talmud – “Rabbi Yochanan said in the name of Rabbi Yehuda in the name of Rabbi Ilayi: In the time to come, Rome will fall at the hands of Persia.”

Rabbi Yonasan Eibshetz (1690-1764) in his book Ya’arot Dvash – “At a certain moment the time will come when the Messiah should have already arrived but the redemption has not yet come. The Messiah will ask how it could be that the time for redemption has arrived and he still undergoes sufferings? The response that he will receive is that he must wait for nine months. Why? In order to wait for the fall of Persia (Iran) at the hands of Edom (the Christian West), and then the final redemption will come!”

I suspect Iran takes out Rome via nuclear terrorism or there would be no waiting nine months. After a nine month investigation, Nato takes out Iran via a nuclear attack in retaliation. Naturally, Iran would nuke Nato back and from what I understand Iran will also nuke several Gulf states, like Saudi Arabia.

Seal #5 - Rome falls via nuclear terrorism.
Seal #6 - Nato nukes Iran in retaliation for #5 after a 9 month investigation.

Here are a couple of sources:

[Blog] The Prophetic Destruction of Iran - Breaking Israel News | Latest News. Biblical Perspective.

- [Blog] The Prophetic Destruction of Iran - Breaking Israel News | Latest News. Biblical Perspective.
- Prophecy Fulfilled: Sept. 4, 2015 - Israel News

Does this mean Iran is the Mystery Babylon?

 

[Running2win]

A spirit of a literal serpent sold out to Satan?

LOL!!

Look...please provide a scripture saying this. Not your silly speculations as you also done with your charts!

Just read Genesis just as you would any other book. The Bible is not all symbolism. A Real, "made" serpent that lost its ability to walk because he was involved with Satan in deceiving Eve. Thus Satan is the symbolically a serpent in Rev12. He is the deceiver of old because of this.

 

[lsume]

There are two women in Revelation 17, not one as is often thought.

One is the great harlot that gets destroyed by the ten kings in the end times.

The other is the kingdom of Satan and his third of the angels, that is at the root of all false religions and abominations upon the earth.

Here is my chart to aid in understanding the difference.

View attachment 282480

Consider perhaps that the great harlot represents the false church? The false church being all who claim Christ but are not in Christ. Of course this number will change.

 

[TexFire316]

What if she isn't one denomination or religion, but all of them?
The problem that I see is that when we (the people of the Most High) appoint a mere man as a religious leader, we have a tendacy to elevate him (or her) higher than ourselves. And this position already has Someone there, His name is Jesus. Absolute power will corrupt absolutely.
We don't need any of these religions and sects to worship the Most High. We would rather be stiff-necked and join the local religious country club. We should worship God from home, and then find other brothers that live near us to study the Bible with and exchanges thoughts and ideas.

 

[Douggg]

Consider perhaps that the great harlot represents the false church? The false church being all who claim Christ but are not in Christ. Of course this number will change.

For me, that the great harlot is found in the place of seven mountains, which seems to indicate Rome.

There are a multitude of false beliefs in the churchs, some greater than others, like Mormonism and JW's. But I don't think the ten kings would go out of their way to destroy those.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I did not say some animals have that ability. I was only speaking about that one specific serpent beast. That the serpent beast spoke with Eve and displayed reasoning is in the scriptures.

No, your speculation is not supported by Bible. A spirit of the physical beast sold out of Satan so he could speak with Eve. The assumption is the mother of all errors, so I do not need to deal with the rest of your nonsense here as you really do not understand Satan.

 

[Douggg]

What if she isn't one denomination or religion, but all of them?
The problem that I see is that when we (the people of the Most High) appoint a mere man as a religious leader, we have a tendacy to elevate him (or her) higher than ourselves. And this position already has Someone there, His name is Jesus. Absolute power will corrupt absolutely.
We don't need any of these religions and sects to worship the Most High. We would rather be stiff-necked and join the local religious country club. We should worship God from home, and then find other brothers that live near us to study the Bible with and exchanges thoughts and ideas.

TexFire316, I read the text and imo the harlot has to be something tangible for the ten kings to destroy with fire. What I think you are talking about is something philosophical. I am not saying you are wrong, but there has to be something tangible regarding the harlot, and for the ten kings to hate harlot. Which given the history of Europe, the politicians have had to accommodate the Vatican for political necessity, and I don't think a lot of them like that having to.

 

[TribulationSigns]

For me, that the great harlot is found in the place of seven mountains, which seems to indicate Rome.

There are a multitude of false beliefs in the churchs, some greater than others, like Mormonism and JW's. But I don't think the ten kings would go out of their way to destroy those.

Oh brother.

Is she? Well, 142 Homes in the Poconos are seated on 7 hills. But what has that got to do with scripture? I mean, it doesn't even really fit what's stated there. Are these alleged 7 mountains or hills in Rome ruled by 7 kings? Do we treat scripture like a salad bar where we can take what we like and leave the rest behind? Interpretations belong to God and are not subject to supposition and assumptions like you are making here! In the world, 7 hills may "seem" to loosely fit with Rome, but in scripture hill/mountains are used to symbolize kingdoms. Not literal hills or mountains. And Revelation is an "obviously" symbolic book. And 7 heads symbolize authority. This is the cryptic language that God uses in books like Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc. And it fact, it tells us plainly "right in the context" that there were 7 kings of the mountains, meaning the mountains represented kingdoms.

Revelation 17:9-10

• "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
• And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Common sense would tell us if the mountains were to be taken as literal hills, the woman sitting upon them must be taken literally also. Inconsistency is the hallmark of error. So it's nonsensical to think of these 7 mountains as literal little hills upon which Rome sits.

Come on...THINK! If that were true, then one of these literal mountains hadn't even existed yet when Revelation was written, and another had already fallen at the time of the writing. That's how ridiculous it is, no matter what people like you may have thought based upon their tunnel vision. It makes no sense unless we read scripture logically, circumspectly, and define scripture by comparing scripture with scripture. Not by the geographical hills and valleys of Italy, or the il feelings toward the Catholic Church of the day.

 

[TribulationSigns]

TexFire316, I read the text and imo the harlot has to be something tangible for the ten kings to destroy with fire. What I think you are talking about is something philosophical. I am not saying you are wrong, but there has to be something tangible regarding the harlot, and for the ten kings to hate harlot. Which given the history of Europe, the politicians have had to accommodate the Vatican for political necessity, and I don't think a lot of them like that having to.

More speculations and assumptions.

First, you did not get ten horns upon the beast correct. They are not literal ten men who will go to hate the Vatican, making her "naked", eat her flesh and burn it while your so-called antichrist and false prophets are performing supernatural miracles in Jerusalem. Your interpretation does NOT make any sense! You did not even answer my questions on how will the Vatican made naked and desolate? Her "flesh" eaten, and burn with WHAT fire.

Come on, answer the questions. Else...you could not!

 

[Douggg]

No, your speculation is not supported by Bible. A spirit of the physical beast sold out of Satan so he could speak with Eve. The assumption is the mother of all errors, so I do not need to deal with the rest of your nonsense here as you really do not understand Satan.

If you expect me to respond to you, you are going to have to start making sense in your posts.

The serpent beast had the ability of speak and reason. Independent of Satan.

The sell out was that the serpent would do something for Satan, which was in exchange to usurp man's place of appointment that God had given him, the serpent would be the ruler of the garden. The serpent thinking that Satan had that ability.

 

[TribulationSigns]

If you expect me to respond to you, you are going to have to start making sense in your posts.

No, you are the one who does not make any sense. Look at your own quote:

The spirit of the literal beast called a serpent in Genesis, who apparently sold out to Satan, to get Adam and Eve to sin.

Enough said. If you do not have Scripture support, no one should support your man-made assumption!

The serpent beast had the ability of speak and reason. Independent of Satan.

Independent of Satan?! LOL!

The sell out was that the serpent would do something for Satan, which was in exchange to usurp man's place of appointment that God had given him, the serpent would be the ruler of the garden. The serpent thinking that Satan had that ability.

Purely speculation! Need I say more?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

There are two women in Revelation 17, not one as is often thought.

One is the great harlot that gets destroyed by the ten kings in the end times.

The other is the kingdom of Satan and his third of the angels, that is at the root of all false religions and abominations upon the earth.

Here is my chart to aid in understanding the difference.

View attachment 282480

I believe the "woman" is the same from the beginning to the end. She was once protected in the wilderness then she became a harlot while in the wilderness. This is apostate Israel, specifically Jerusalem. Be blessed.

1. Revelation 12:6

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

2. Revelation 12:14

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

3. Revelation 17:3

So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

 

[Douggg]

More speculations and assumptions.

First, you did not get ten horns upon the beast correct. They are not literal ten men who will go to hate the Vatican, making her "naked", eat her flesh and burn it while your so-called antichrist and false prophets are performing supernatural miracles in Jerusalem. Your interpretation does NOT make any sense! You did not even answer my questions on how will the Vatican made naked and desolate? Her "flesh" eaten, and burn with WHAT fire.

Come on, answer the questions. Else...you could not!

Matthew 23:338 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

typifies what meaning made desolate means. And the method the Romans used to destroy the temple in 70ad, was with fire.

So destroying the Vatican with fire, making it desolate that way, burning it to the ground - I don't understand your objections to that interpretation.