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Featured Two Possibilities in Explaining Christ's Divine Behavior & His Limited Human Behavior.

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Jason0047, Aug 16, 2018.

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  1. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Right, I cannot accept Jesus has a human soul or human spirit and
    we can worship that in addition to Him being God because Jesus said,
    "Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Luke 4:8).

    A human soul and human spirit is not God just because it is combined with God.

    Tests for the Son of God were to show His divinity in that He was God and that He was not capable of sinning.

    James 1:13 says God cannot be tempted to sin.
    Is Jesus God, right?
    He sure is.
    So that means Jesus cannot be tempted.
    But yet, folks want to say that He can be tempted to sin.
    In order to sin, you first need to have lust or wrong desire (See James 1:14-15).
    Do you believe Jesus had lust or wrong desire and yet He did not simply act on that?
    If so, then how could He be our spotless Lamb by having lust?
    1 John 2:16 says lust is not of the Father.
    Jesus says He is one with the Father.
    So this means Jesus did not have lust, too.
     
  2. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    It sounds like you are agreeing with me here.
    If that is so.... then.... thank you.
     
  3. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

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    You're welcome, I am agreeing that Jesus limited His Omniscience while incarnated
     
  4. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Jesus is not an alien like from some other planet. He actually has the same physical flesh and blood we have that comes from Adam.

    As for your other points: I am glad we share some of them. I will have to address some of them in other threads as time arises and try to remember to notify you.

    May God bless you.

    Side Note:

    Oh, and when I say that we are saved by Faith + Works, I meant to say we are saved by God directed works done through us and not works of our own effort after we are saved by God's grace. I used to also believe at one time that we were saved by Faith - Works. But in time, I realized that this is simply giving people an excuse to say that they can sin and still be saved or to live life as they please instead of following Jesus. But that is another topic for another thread and time, my friend.

    In any event, please be well in the Lord.
     
  5. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    I am glad. Jesus being limited in knowledge is a parallel of Adam having limited knowledge. So Jesus is restoring us back to the Garden before the Fall. Jesus who is the second man (or Last Adam) is the Lord from heaven (See Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15).
     
  6. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

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    You too Jason - we agree on quite a bit.
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I think I already noted the Incarnation resolves these issues. There is no mixing of natures but two natures one fully human and one fully God but One Person.
     
  8. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Okay. While I normally do not like to go off topic, I will give you my personal list of Scripture verses for why I believe we are saved by Grace + Works (Because it is so near and dear to my heart). For me it was a revelation when I read the verses below all together. For...

    After we are saved by God's grace,
    God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


    (Here are a List of Verses):


    “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

    "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

    "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

    "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

    "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

    "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

    "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

    “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

    "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

    "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

    “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

    "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

    ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

    "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

    “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

    "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

    "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

    ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

    "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

    “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

    "...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

    “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

    “...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

    ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

    “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

    ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

    ”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

    ”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

    ”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

    ”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

    “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

    “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).


    Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

    Jesus says,

    "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

    Jesus also says,

    "You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

    And Peter says,

    "Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

    Paul says,

    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).


    Side Note:

    Please take note that there are other believers (Who are not Catholics) who believe that we are saved by God's grace + works. David Servant is one believer who is very knowledgable in God's Word (who believes that way, too).

    Here is a good sermon by him.



    Here is his YouTube Channel.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR1Zz60EqaivXqR6buTL2vQ?&ab_channel=DavidServant
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The Divine Logos is everlasting. He became Jesus of Nazareth.

    What does the Incarnation mean to you?
     
  10. oldrunner

    oldrunner Member Supporter

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    But Jesus was tempted, but without sin. That is why Satan tempted Him. He passed the test as a man. :) Satan was trying to get Jesus to worship Him, or turn stones into bread, or jump off the Temple. He was basically saying-show me something "if" you are the Son of God! Trying to get Jesus to use His Divine powers, or get mad.

    That is why He said He could of prayed to the Father and got 12 legions of angels when He was arrested- but He didn't. (Mat. 26:53) He was fulfilling Scripture, being the Lamb led to the slaughter. And He had to do it as a man.

    I think I agreed with you that Jesus would never want to sin because He had no sin nature- if you re-read that. But that don't mean the test was not genuine, cause the Scripture says it was.

    It seems I've had the same arguments with JWs that sound a lot like this? Either way, I find it hard to follow your logic. :scratch: I guess we'll just have to disagree on this point. God will sort it all out one day. :)
     
  11. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    Apollinarism reflects a time when the church was wrestling with who Jesus was. They were trying to figure it out and it wasn't until Chalcedon (451) that it was articulated (not fully embraced) because of this most of us are Chalcedonian Christians and it was considered an extension of Nicene faith. But before Chalcedon there was a lot of thinking out loud and Apollinaris was certainly a part of this process so was Nestorius and so was Cyril of Alexandria... they all got it wrong but not all were considered heretical.

    The language used with Apollinaris reflects a wrestling with Jesus being God and Jesus being man. Apollinaris could not reconcile the man Jesus and demanded that in order for us to be sanctified Jesus must be a unity and he rejected the notion that the Son was conjoined with man... and this is the language problem. Apollinaris's view was the flesh cannot act alone and was dependant upon another substance to be animated. Thus during the incarnation the divine was fused with the flesh and the divine fills the role of spirit and mind in a human.

    This means that in this presentation of Christ there is no conflict of wills, no ability to sin or no ability to be corrupted or truly experience what a human experience outside the physical but even then the physical senses are still experienced only by the divine. The position is argued by saying if the whole of Adem fell, then the redeemer must be united to the whole of the nature of Adam in order to redeem him wholey. If Jesus does not have the ability to fully participate in humanity then humanity always has an excuse of sinning with the mind which is so unredeemable that even Jesus could not unite with it.

    So even though the dual nature of Christ was not yet conceived or too difficult to embrace during the time of Apollinaris his Christology has a flawed product of salvation where humanity and the divine never fully connect. The early church looked at Christology starting from Jesus's divinity then tried to reconcile his humanity, for Apollinaris he could only except the flesh but nothing else. This wrestling of the nature of Jesus is laudable but bishops were stubborn and arrogant and the church was ruthless quick to sever any part that threatened it's ways. It is quoted that the Emperor at the time, Julian, "knew that no wild beasts were so hostile to men as were the Christians to one another." Perhaps Apollinaris could have been treated better but he had the same character flaws as the other bishops and arguments were often to the death... or for the church deemed a heretic.

    Isn't it something remarkable to know the Jesus took not just human flesh but a human nature as well showing that God may interact and heal the human wholy? With Apollinarism what is left is still an absent God that puts on humanity like a costume pretending to be us... does he pretend to save us as well?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  12. discipler7

    discipler7 Well-Known Member

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    What will you be doing if/when you meet the Lord Jesus Christ at His 2nd Coming to earth.? Do you really know Jesus.?

    MATTHEW.7:21-23 = I Never Knew You
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    JOHN.20:28-29 = 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That is absolutely NOT what is meant by the Hypostatic Union, Jason.
     
  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Nor did I suggest that it does. ;)
     
  15. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Yes, the divine Logos is everlasting. This is true. But you are saying that Jesus has a human soul and or human spirit in the Incarnation. This would mean that Jesus would be a uniquely new being within the universe and He would technically not be from everlasting. Unless you believe Jesus sheds His Earthly body, Micah 5:2 is saying that Jesus is everlasting. This is regardless of what time Jesus existed. Jesus has always existed. Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (1 John 4:2).

    I already said that I believe that Jesus (Who has always existed) took on a human flesh and blood body that was from Adam. That is the Incarnation.

    Jesus did not take on a blank human soul, and or human spirit or a newly created human soul that fits his own divine soul.
     
  16. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Jesus never gave us the indication that he had two spirits or that he combined with another human spirit or soul. Jesus said that He came down from Heaven (John 6:38). Jesus did not say, I came down from Heaven and joined with this man's soul. The Scriptures also say that the Messiah (Jesus) is from everlasting (Micah 5:2). This would be a contradiction if the Messiah was also had to wait in taking on a human spirit and soul, too (So as to become and amalgam or one with it). Jesus said to the Pharisees in John 8 that before Abraham was born, He was the " I AM " from Exodus chapter 3. Jesus did not let us know he took on a human spirit in addition to him being the great " I AM ." Scripture also says that the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within him bodily. Scripture does not say that the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within him body and soul.
     
  17. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    However, some believers have claim that the atonement is denied if a believer denies that Christ had a human soul or human nature. In fact, I do not even technically believe in Apollinarism because it also states Jesus had a human soul. My belief is only similar to Apollinarism in the fact that it claims that Jesus had one nature (Which is divine).
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  18. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Desiring God says,

    Jesus has two complete natures: one fully human and one fully divine. What the doctrine of the hypostatic union teaches is that these two natures are united in one person in the God-man. Jesus is not two persons. He is one person. The hypostatic union is the joining (mysterious though it be) of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus.

    Got Questions says,

    The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man. Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person.

    Blue Letter Bible says,

    The hypostatic union can be defined as God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, came to earth and took human nature upon himself. Thus Jesus was fully God and fully human. He will remain this way forever.

    Orthodox Wiki says,

    Hypostatic union (from the Greek: ὑπόστασις, "hypostasis," translated reality or person) [1] is a term in Christian theology used to describe the Incarnation expressing the revealed truth that in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human.
     
  19. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Well, first, I believe Jesus is God and that He had a human flesh and blood body.
    So I am not sure why you quoted John 20:28. I have used that verse many times to show that Jesus is God.

    Second, by your quoting of Matthew 7:21-23, (IMO) you are suggesting I do not believe that holiness is not a requirement for believers as a part of the salvation process. Nothing could be further from the truth (if that is what you are suggesting). I believe we are saved by God's grace + Sanctification. Granted, you may have had another reason for quoting this passage, but that is what I believe it says. For I believe it is saying how we must live holy as a part of being in Christ's kingdom. So your quoting of Matthew 7:21-23 is just a baseless accusation, friend (if that is what you meant by quoting that passage).
     
  20. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Technically, I do not believe in Apollinarism because like the Hypostatic Union, it ALSO teaches that Christ had a human soul. The part I believe in Apollinarism is the part that says Jesus has only one nature (Which is divine). But ultimately I would not say I believe in Apollinarism entirely. Therefore, I technically really do not believe in it.

    There really is no Theological name for what I believe in regards to Christ's nature. He simply did not have a human soul but only a divine soul. Before the creation of this world, I believe Jesus had limited His divine attribute of Omniscience. For Jesus said in John 17 that he desired to share in the glory He once had with the Father before the creation. Then when Mary was born, Jesus was born into the flesh and blood body of a man (in the genealogical line of Adam). This was only an empty body that Jesus controls with His divine soul.

    Also, I do not put much stock in man made History, either. People can re-write History to make themselves look good (and we would be none the wiser). I believe in God's Word. That is what I can trust. So the argument should be based upon God's Word to form our belief about the nature of Christ and not some man made history in regards to Him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
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