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Featured Two Possibilities in Explaining Christ's Divine Behavior & His Limited Human Behavior.

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Jason0047, Aug 16, 2018.

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  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    What is revealed is He did not sin but was tempted (Matthew 4).
     
  2. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that changed their brain. Man took on the ability to choose between good and evil, right and wrong. If Jesus was fully human like us then He had to have had a brain like us. As far as we know people considered him to be fully human.

    "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin." Hebrews 4:15

    The authors of Hebews here uses a double negative. I do not know why. For me I would use the positive: WE HAVE a high priest who is ABLE to empathize with our weakness. "one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are"

    If Jesus was tempted in every way as we are. IF Jesus was fully human then he MUST have had the ability to be able to sin. Yet He proved Himself and He did not sin. He came to live His life as an example for us to follow.

    Romans "For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man"

    Hebrews 2:18
    Because He Himself suffered when He was tempted,
     
  3. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    However, while the Hypostatic Union (HU) may be a slim possibility, the contradictions are too numerous if one holds to the HU as the only viable truth.

    Contradiction #1. Jesus Himself said that we are to worship God alone. A human soul and a human spirit mixed up in the body of Jesus along with His eternal divine soul as the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity would conflict with that.

    Contradiction #2. Jesus would technically not be the everlasting ruler from Micah 5:2 if Jesus came into being as a new creation by taking on a new human soul and a new human spirit.

    Contradiction #3. Jesus could not be holy, undefiled, and separate from sinners as Hebrews 7:26 says if he truly had a human nature with the capacity to sin.

    Contradiction #4. John 1:14 says the Word was made flesh, 1 John 4:2 says Jesus came in the flesh, and 1 Timothy 3:16 says God was manifest in the flesh. These things cannot be if it was also a human soul and human spirit mixed up in there somewhere. It would contradict those verses.

    Contradiction #5. Jesus says, I and my Father are one (John 10:30). Yet, the Scriptures say that lust is not of the Father (1 John 2:16). This means Jesus does not have lust within Him because He is one with the Father. You cannot sin unless you have lust (See James 1:14-15). So Christians who say Jesus had a human nature who could have potentially sinned (But didn't) are not speaking in light of the whole of Scripture and they are just repeating what they have been told or holding onto what is popular.

    I would like that, too. But it would have to be unsweetened ice tea, my friend. I have put away sugar and heavy doses of carbs (like breads, potatoes, rice, etc) as a way of life over the past few months (And I have lost a lot of weight and feel great because of it).

    Again, I see the HU as one possible explanation; But it is a slim possibility. There would also have to be more Scripture that would sound more convincing that Jesus took on a human soul or human body for the HU to be stated as 100% fact. I just don't get the impression in God's Word that He did that.

    I read John 17, and we hear Jesus talk about a glory that He once shared with God the Father before the creation. This glory could be the full unhindered Omniscience He had as the Holy Son of God. In Philippians 2, we see about how Jesus took on the form of a servant. Meaning, He did everything the Father told Him to do. He was humble and low and it was an example of how we are to be humble and low. That Jesus was obedient unto death. He chose this mission in being low and He did not make an open show of His powers. This to me also suggests that Jesus suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience. Instead of accessing His divine attribute of Omniscience fully, He humbled himself and obeyed the Father. He did not allow Himself to know about the day of His return.

    Maybe that is the issue? The fact that is all you have ever known in it being fact? Never questioning it. Just accepting it always. Never double checking it with Scripture. I hope I am wrong, and that is not the case, my friend. Again, while I believe the HU can be potentially true, it just seems less likely or probable based on the evidence we are presented in Scripture. Then again, I could be wrong. Hence, why I believe the HU is a possibility.

    Sometimes God leads us to Him by imperfect means or ways of thinking. What I have come to know early on in my faith is not the same as I believe now. I have matured and grown in my faith since the very beginning.

    Anyways, I see the reference to Jesus being the "Son of Man" as the Living Word humbling himself by suppressing His divine attribute of Omniscience and taking on a human flesh and blood body. Acts of the Apostles 20:28 says, "...feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." This is saying that it is God's blood. Now, I am not saying that the blood is literally divine. I am saying that the blood is God's blood because the owner of the blood of the body of Jesus was the Living Word (Who is God). If Jesus was also a human soul and a human spirit then this would not be God's blood in reference to ownership but the ownership would go to a newly created human soul, too.

    The statement in Luke 22:39-42 is talking about how the Living Word spoke while He suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience. This to me is not proof that He was talking from some human side of himself because He has a soul or a human spirit. I mean, how does the Son of God choose to be? Is He sometimes human and sometimes God in the way that He behaved and spoke? This is the problem I have with the current understanding on the HU. Hence, it needs to be modified.

    I would say that Jesus always spoke and acted as God because He was God 100% of the time and He never stopped being God. For Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever!!!

    1 John 4:2 says Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
    It's not.... the flesh came and He is now Jesus Christ.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  4. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Actually, the Hypostatic Union is more in line with making Christ into a hybrid - IMO.
    For it says that Jesus is an amalgam of God and man 100%.
    Jesus having only a divine eternal soul and taking on a body as a shell or covering like it was a cloak or robe means God is our Savior and He redeemed us with human body to do it. In fact, what I find silly is that some in your type of belief will go so far as to wrongfully say that it is a denial of the atonement. But Peter says that Jesus bore our sins within His body on the tree (cross). No human soul or human spirit was actually needed for the atonement. Oh, and by the way, Jesus is typified as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the entire world. He was the spotless Lamb.

    Do you believe Jesus could have sinned?

    Well, that is a smart come back with words, but it really does not answer my question that I am seeking with Scripture.
     
  5. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

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    This and other statements you have made, Jason, are just YOUR OPINION of

    "what MUST BE be IF_____";

    they are not shared by Christendom at large, past and present.

    I submit that it is you personally who hold some of these things that "could not be IF..." and that the majority of Christians -- again past and present -- beg to differ, looking at the same scriptures you do.

    Instead of quote feature, I will put some of your statements below in italics and then comment below them.

    If Jesus was also a human soul and a human spirit then this would not be God's blood in reference to ownership.

    The blood of Christ IS the blood of God because Christ is God.

    Jesus would technically not be the everlasting ruler from Micah 5:2 if Jesus came into being as a new creation by taking on a new human soul and a new human spirit.

    That also is an OPINION of yours, and as pointed out, some Christians believe souls are eternal, and do not need to be 'created on the spot' for each human life. We are talking 'minority positions' to begin with in this thread, as I guess you are Apollinarian (itself deemed heretical) -- with an extra twist of lime -- that Jesus did not have a human soul?

    Jesus Himself said that we are to worship God alone. A human soul and a human spirit mixed up in the body of Jesus along with His eternal divine soul as the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity would conflict with that.

    How many millions of Christians, past and present, have worshipped Him as God, fully believing Him to be truly God and truly man; they have worshipped without any sense of impropriety that they are worshipping anything less than divine because to most of Christendom His full divinity and full humanity is ASSUMED and does NOT bring with it the objections that you say "must be IF X or Y is true."

     
  6. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    No it does not resolve Micah 5:2. It says this ruler (Who is Jesus) is from everlasting. If Jesus fully came into existence in the Incarnation by taking on a human soul and human spirit, then He technically would not be from everlasting anymore. If it is talking about the Logos, then Jesus would need to get rid of His physical flesh and blood body. But we know that cannot happen because Scripture says this:

    "...he ever liveth to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25).

    "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore,..." (Revelation 1:18).
     
  7. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Not at all. No Scripture says that we are saved by the human soul (or the human spirit) of Jesus Christ. He physically took on sin in his bod to do that and not his soul (See 1 Peter 2:24). Jesus paid the price for our sins with His blood. When he rose from the grave, it was not over yet. He needed to ascend to the Father and enter the temple by His blood so as to be a mediator or Heavenly High priest between God the Father and man. Hebrews 7:25 says that he forever lives to make intercession for us. The Logos lives inside a human body that specifically made for Him in the incarnation and then was later resurrected after His death. By his physical resurrection, we will be able to one day have a physical resurrection, too.
     
  8. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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  9. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

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    You don't think Jesus took on a human BODY?

    Are we adding a twist of Docetism now that Jesus only SEEMED to be crucified? That He was a spiritual-only creation that didn't really die on the Cross?
     
  10. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

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    So He had a body -- but it is not a HUMAN Body -- maybe I need to look at the Martian Manhunter post again...

    Which way is it Jason, did Jesus have a human body or not, if not, what kind of body was it, or is it just an illusion of a body as in some forms of Docetism?
     
  11. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    He is a fictional character. So he is not really a cool guy. He is an imaginary character. But yes, I have collected DC comics in the past, and have watched the JLA cartoon many times (Although I used to be more of a Marvel fan). Currently, I have put away worldly secular comic book reading and movie watching. As much as I enjoyed the Avengers films, etc. I put them away out of my life. It was not easy, but with Christ, He was able to set me free from these things.

    Aliens are a part of the deception today. People have claimed to have had encounters with them. But they are actually demons in disguise. Those who encountered aliens many times they coincidentally were involved in the occult or some idolatrous false religion. Also, brimstone is a smell that also appears in these kind of encounters, as well. Is it a coincidence that ghost encounters also report that they smell brimstone, too? Is it not strange that brimstone is one of the things associated with hell?

    No. Jesus was fully human PHYSICALLY. He had real flesh and blood and he could get hungry, tired, etc. because of this body. While there may be a story or set of storylines that I may not be aware of, to my knowledge: Martian Manhunter (A fictional character) generally did not take on a physical flesh and blood body of a human (in the fictional world of DC comics).

    He was God with us in the fact that He had a human body and was with us in His human body. It would not really be "Immanuel" God with us if He was also a human soul and a human spirit thrown into the mix. It would be God with us + human soul, too. But the Scriptures never say anything about that.

    What we see being describe here in Luke 22:42 is the Word (Eternal Logos) speaking while He is being limited in knowledge. See, I believe that when the Word (Eternal Logos) took on the title of the Messenger of the Lord before the creation, He suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience (i.e. to know all things). I believe this because Jesus hints at this in John 17. He says that He desires to share in the glory He once had with the Father before the creation.

    For knowledge relates to the glory of God:

    Habakkuk 2.jpg

    "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6).

    God does have one divine will. I believe that. Jesus only asked if there was another way because He was limited in knowledge as the Eternal Logos in the fact that He suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience. Besides, Jesus did not go against what the Father desired. He submitted to the Father. For He said He always does what pleases the Father. So did He not please the Father by his question? Surely not. For Jesus immediately said after the question, "Yet not as I will, but as You will."

    Sorry. I don't believe that. I believe God has one divine will. We just seen a rare occurrence or situation where one of the members of the Godhead spoke while being limited in knowledge.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  12. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

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    Why is Martian Manhunter not a cool guy, just because he is fictional and imaginary? His character was a super-HERO, not super-villain. Limited to a short story in the back of Detective Comics for a long time, when comics were just 12 cents apiece and he was just filler for Batman, he was in Justice League from the beginning.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  13. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Are there not certain beliefs you hold to that are not held by Christendom at large?

    I also do not believe in OSAS (Which is popular in Christendom).
    I also do not believe in Eternal Torment (Which is popular in Christendom).
    I believe that we are saved by both God's grace + works (Which goes against popular Christiendom).
    I also believe house churches (of believers only) is the model of how we are to gather (Which goes against popular Christendom).
    I also believe in New Testament Pacifism (Which goes against popular Christendom).
    I also believe Jesus made unfermented wine (non-intoxicating wine) (Which goes against popular Christendom).
    I also believe the KJV is the divinely inspired Word of God (Which goes against popular Christendom).

    I don't believe so because not many people have changed their minds on certain Bible topics after I have showed them many Scriptures.

    I agree 100%. But you are ignoring the big elephant in the room that says Jesus ALSO has a human soul and or human spirit, too.

    Okay. Basically you are just throwing down the heresy card and you are not really offering me any Scripture to show that you are correct here. So you believe Jesus's human soul was eternal? Is that how you solve the problem?

    I never once considered Jesus as having a human soul and never once have I ever thought I had to worship His divine nature along with his human nature. That is crazy. Jesus can enter a person's heart. This can only be as the divine Eternal Logos. If the human soul of Jesus did exist, it would only be able to reside up in Heaven with His physical body. But nothing is ever mentioned about his human soul. It is merely an assumption drawn on inferences from various Scriptures. Granted, I am also making an assumption on various Scriptures, too. But the difference is that my belief actually is more in line with Scripture. I do not have to worry about worshiping a human soul. I worship God because we are told to worship God alone.
     
  14. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Well, three reasons.

    1. He is fictional. So in reality, he does not really exist so as to be a cool guy for real.
    2. He is a fictional character promoted by secular thinking and or fictional writing (that is of this world). 1 John 2:15-17 says we are not to love the world and neither the things in this world.
    3. He is a fictional character who is a representation of an alien. In the real world: People have claimed to have alien encounters; However, they are actually demonic encounters. I explained this in my previous post.
     
  15. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Oh boy. JESUS HAS a PHYSICAL FLESH AND BLOOD BODY.
    He still has one forever.
    I just do not believe he had a human soul or human spirit.
    I believe the soul, mind, will, and emotions was the Eternal Logos (Who was limited in knowledge because He suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience).
     
  16. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Jesus is God (John 20:28).
    However,
    "God cannot be tempted with evil,..." (James 1:13).

    14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15).

    So every man who is tempted is drawn away by his own lust and enticed.
    Are you saying Jesus was drawn away his own lust?
    That is what it means when someone is tempted.

    The Bible says,
    they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

    If this is possible for believers, then how was it not possible for the Holy Son of God?

    So obviously Matthew 4:1 is talking about external temptation done by the devil and not internal temptation.
     
  17. oldrunner

    oldrunner Member Supporter

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    I think the problem is that you can't just accept the fact that Jesus is the only "Person", that can be worshipped. But that is what the union is about! :) You can't seem to accept God did put His stamp on Jesus, truly one of us, but truly God too.

    You said it yourself about the DNA. This was a miracle by the Holy Spirit! So therefore, He did not have lust or bad thoughts-stuff of the old sinful nature passed on from Adam, that comes out of a evil unbelieving heart- that we all have. Adam didn't have a sin nature either when he was created, but he sinned when tested- cause he wasn't God. :idea: We all would of made the same mistake as Adam. And he had a soul, just like Jesus. Catholic doctrine says, Mary was sinless because of this issue-I believe. But that doesn't have to be an issue-because it was a miracle, and Mary called Jesus her Savior too.

    Because of this-and He was God, He could not sin, because His "wanter", was different than ours-like ours will be when we get our new spiritual body, that goes along with our already born again soul. Put the Holy Spirit never leaving us, and we will never sin, or want to sin for eternity! :amen:

    Some people believe He had the ability to sin, or otherwise it would not be a real test. But He was still temped in all ways- just like us. The Scriptures say this, so who are we to say it wasn't real, or real hard? It was cause we got the inside scoop. :)

    Remember, this is the first time this has ever happened-and won't happen again, so being a man would of had to of been a big shock! :eek: He experienced everything as we did, and was temped way more than any man ever- by Satan himself! Remember that. He even sweated blood! :wave: To top it off, He didn't do anything wrong!

    The whole ball of wax is He had to be 100% man, with a soul- and I think the Scriptures make it clear He did have a soul- to redeem the human race. Part just don't cut it.

    There comes a time when we get where we can't quite explain something, or understand something. That is when we have faith, and this is when we get a multitude of counselors-Creeds hammered out, brothers on this forum, and just trust that maybe I don't have it right?
     
  18. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

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    I would agree with you that many alleged alien encounters are probably a matter of demonology; but that doesn't make comic book aliens like Martian Manhunter, Superman and Supergirl to blame for the demonic encounters.

    Jesus said He was "not of this world".

    As to your other list of points, I share some of them:

    I also do not believe in OSAS (Which is popular in Christendom).
    Me too.

    I also do not believe in Eternal Torment (Which is popular in Christendom).
    I am leaning heavily that way also.

    I believe that we are saved by both God's grace + works (Which goes against popular Christiendom).

    No, I believe that we are saved by grace through faith; to call faith "a work" would be a stretch although once Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in the one He has sent".
    Believe there is just verb form of faith, and I would not call it "a work" anymore than I would say that Jesus was technically an alien -- but He flat out said "ye are of this world, I am not of this world".

    I also believe house churches (of believers only) is the model of how we are to gather (Which goes against popular Christendom).

    No opinion on that.

    I also believe in New Testament Pacifism (Which goes against popular Christendom).

    Not a pacifist.

    I also believe Jesus made unfermented wine (non-intoxicating wine) (Which goes against popular Christendom).


    I believe He made fermented wine, but we use unfermented grape juice in Methodist church.

    I also believe the KJV is the divinely inspired Word of God (Which goes against popular Christendom).

    I like KJV, but surely compare other versions - many of whom employ earlier manuscripts than KJV translators had available - though earlier is not necessarily more correct.
     
  19. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Give in secret & you will be rewarded openly. Supporter

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    Hebrews 4:15 - "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

    Christ was tempted LIKE as we are. For the word "like" is used to compare something to another (or in making a parallel to something similar). The greek word "κατά" is linked to he Greek word "ταὐτά" in Luke 6:23, which is also transliterated as the word "like".

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2596&t=KJV
    Click on full entry for the reference of Luke 6:23 (i.e. Luk. vi 23.)

    So we have to ask the question, if he was tempted as we are, then why did He not sin? Was it because He was a good and perfect person? Was it because He was created as a demi-god or an angel? Was it because He had a certain portion of the divinity of God? No, most certainly not. He did not sin because He was God Almighty 100%. He did not sin because He could not be tempted. Yes, he was tempted like we are in the sense that He was in our place. But that was it; For the parallel stops there. For the Scriptures do not say that Christ was tempted EXACTLY as we are. The Bible simply uses the word "like" which can be used to make a comparison of something.

    God is good. Christ is good because He is God. Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3). Jesus did not have a sin nature so as to be tempted. For you have to have a wrong desire or wrong nature in order to be tempted by wrong things. It's basic cause and effect. A person can take a blind man into a strip club to tempt them (with the lust of his eyes) by looking at women in a strip club. It's not possible. He is blind. He was tempted externally but there was no way he was tempted internally. For Jesus to do potential wrong means He had to have a sin nature. However, Hebrews 7:25 says Jesus is Holy, Innocent, Unstained, Separate From Sinners, and Exalted Above the Heavens. If Jesus had a sin nature, then He could not be our spotless Lamb. He would have been stained. And you would need some kind of sin nature in order to be tempted in some way. The cult known as the Christadelphians teach that Jesus has a sin nature and it is wrong.

    As for how Jesus is able to comfort his disciples:
    Well, Jesus is able to comfort them because He was in their place physically as a man like they were (limited in knowledge) being tempted just like they were. However, the difference is that Christ did not ever consider or have a desire in doing evil (Which has to exist if one is to be truly tempted internally). You have to say Jesus had lust in order for Him to be tempted (See James 1:14-15). But God cannot be tempted (James 1:13); And Jesus is clearly God (John 20:28). Jesus was limited in knowledge (i.e. the Eternal Logos suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience). So that changes the perspective for the Eternal Logos when He was being tempted externally. This is how Jesus was tempted as they were. He did not have all knowledge like He used to (and the external temptations of sin grieved Him in such a way that was unimaginable to Him). This was not in the fact that Jesus ever desired or had lust to do evil. It was merely in the fact that as the Logos who was limited in knowledge: It appeared that He never encountered such a thing before. Seeing it was painful to be grieved by sin in such a way, He is able to comfort those who go through times of temptation.

    When the text says Jesus was tempted in all points like we were: This is in reference to the various different sinful situations that were thrown at Him. Jesus was tempted by men many times externally. He was even tempted externally by the devil but they all failed because Jesus is the Holy Son of God. It's why the devil gave up tempting Him. He figured out that this was the Son of God and anymore temptations would have been pointless. This was God; And God cannot be tempted (James 1:13).

    What is amusing is that this very verse in Romans actually makes my point and not your point. I have already used this verse in the past to defend my position.

    Christ is good because He is God.

    Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3).

    Jesus was made LIKE unto our brethren.

    Now, if I say, "I ate the banana LIKE a gorilla." Well, that doesn't make me an actual gorilla, though. Yes, Jesus had a human physical body, but that does not mean He had a human soul like we do who could potentially sin.

    Also, the word "tempt" can also be defined as "tested", too (Which makes the passages in Hebrews 2 and Hebrews 4 take on an entirely new meaning). For we have to remember that the KJV was written in Old English and influenced many Modern Translations. Oh, and yes. You can see certain Modern Translations use the word "tested" instead of "tempted." For tested sounds like something external that is being done to someone.
     
  20. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

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    I would say so too, like when it says :


    Mat 24:36
    But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    Mar 13:32
    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

    (I think maybe the Son knows NOW...)

    Phl 2:5
    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    ("mind" here is not nous, but phroneo, more like 'opinion'; else I would argue that a human could have the same kind of mind as Christ)

    Phl 2:6
    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phl 2:7
    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Phl 2:8
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
     
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