Two Possibilities in Explaining Christ's Divine Behavior & His Limited Human Behavior.

[Bible Highlighter]

Who here is willing to say Jesus had lusts?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If God says we are to worship God alone, then how can we worship Jesus if He has a human soul and human spirit?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yet Jesus of Nazareth died on that cross and then rose from the tomb. Our soul/spirit is who 'we' are, our inner man.

He was both Son of Man and Son of God.

I believe the Son of Man title for himself was the temple (or the flesh and blood body) with him suppressing His divine power of Omniscience.

Also, stop and think for a second. If Jesus did take on a human soul and or human spirit in some way, then this would mean Jesus came into existence into our universe as a newly created being and that means He has not always existed. But this contradicts Micah 5:2, John 1:1-5, etc.

Again, I am not saying that HU (Hypostatic Union) is not true. It can still work as a slim possibility IF one accepts that Christ is able to speak from the perspective of a divine side and then later from His human side (Thereby suggesting that He is not a perfect amalgam of two natures unified as one).

 

[redleghunter]

Where does sin come from?

A fallen state. Again the Incarnation was a miracle without a human father. There are no materialistic or natural ways to explain such because it is a miracle. Mary was human and she provided the very same elements all human mothers provide to their children.

 

[redleghunter]

If God says we are to worship God alone, then how can we worship Jesus if He has a human soul and human spirit?

Because He is truly God.

 

[Anto9us]

"and thou didst not leave his soul in hell"

from a Psalm prophesying Jesus' death and descent into hades

He had a SOUL that was not to be left in hell.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A fallen state. Again the Incarnation was a miracle without a human father. There are no materialistic or natural ways to explain such because it is a miracle. Mary was human and she provided the very same elements all human mothers provide to their children.

Yes, I believe it was by the virgin birth that helped to bypass the sin of Adam being spread to Jesus. I believe Mary provided the physical DNA to make up the DNA of the body for Jesus Christ. But his mind, will, and emotions were 100% God. They had to be, otherwise you are faced with many contradictions in Scripture.

 

[redleghunter]

No. Hebrews 7:26 says He was made higher than the Heavens. Adam was not made higher than the heavens. Also, the fact that Adam sinned does not mean he was separate from sinners. He was quickly included among them. Jesus was without sin because He had no capacity to sin.

My point was humans were originally created without sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"and thou didst not leave his soul in hell"

from a Psalm prophesying Jesus' death and descent into hades

He had a SOUL that was not to be left in hell.

God has a soul.

Leviticus 26:11
And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

Leviticus 26:30
And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Zechariah 11:8
Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

 

[Anto9us]

Psa 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My point was humans were originally created without sin.

But they were not created higher than the Heavens like Jesus (as mentioned in Hebrews 7:26). Also, Adam would be included as a sinner. Jesus was said to be holy and separate from sinners. Jesus is the second man. This second man is the Lord from Heaven and not a newly created being within the universe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Because He is truly God.

Yes, Jesus is truly God. But if He had a human soul or human spirit, this would undo the command to worship God alone. For we are not to worship anyone or anything but God alone. If a human soul or human spirit was thrown into the mix, that would destroy us being able to worship God alone. It would be worshiping God + some newly created human soul and human spirit, too.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Psa 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

See my post #29.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, I believe it was by the virgin birth that helped to bypass the sin of Adam being spread to Jesus. I believe Mary provided the physical DNA to make up the DNA of the body for Jesus Christ. But his mind, will, and emotions were 100% God. They had to be, otherwise you are faced with many contradictions in Scripture.

Since there are no contradictions in Holy Writ (I know you agree), then when faced with a paradox we examine all the truths and not just some of them.

This is where I wish this discussion could be on a front porch with a refreshing glass of iced tea or lemonade. My best advice brother is to examine the paradox from the perspective of Jesus Christ as Son of Man and Jesus Christ as Son of God. There is no separation of the truly God and truly human here yet He was/is both and because He was/is we have our wonderful gift of salvation.

Personally? I was raised Roman Catholic and the Trinity and historic orthodox Christology is taught from the cradle as FACT. When God in His great Mercy and Grace called me a damned destitute sinner to salvation and repentance, I had to square some doctrines with my new found love the Word of God. So I immediately keyed in on "Son of Man" what exactly does that mean, and then "Son of God" what does that exactly mean and how can He be both and that got me searching. He had to be truly a human being in all aspects of humanity (without sin). That means Jesus of Nazareth had to have my very own mortal body and how my humanity informs that body. He needed to have a soul and not be a soulless frame of flesh. How he agonized in the garden of Gethsemane really did it for me. Our human will comes from our soul/spirit and Jesus clearly stated in that garden:

Luke 22: KJV

39And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. 40And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. 41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

 

[Albion]

It was not an appearance of the killing of a human. A real flesh and blood body died on our behalf.

It wouldn't be the sacrifice of a human, however. It would be, in theory, something unique. Sort of an animal sacrifice, I warrant, but then we would be left to say that because of the death of a talking hybrid not like any one of us in all his everyday doings, and who had no choice in the matter of his death, God had taken the sins of the world on himself, etc. Really?

Also, where is it stated in Scripture that Christ has to be like us in some way so we can relate to Him?

Are you supposing that men would be listening to the sermon on the mount as delivered by an alien traveler, a spectre, or some kind of zombie-like being on the order of Frankenstein's monster? And taking lessons in morality from how he behaved? Not in the real world.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A fallen state. Again the Incarnation was a miracle without a human father. There are no materialistic or natural ways to explain such because it is a miracle. Mary was human and she provided the very same elements all human mothers provide to their children.

Do you believe Jesus had the capacity to sin?

 

[redleghunter]

Also, stop and think for a second. If Jesus did take on a human soul and or human spirit in some way, then this would mean Jesus came into existence into our universe as a newly created being and that means He has not always existed. But this contradicts Micah 5:2, John 1:1-5, etc.

Again, the Incarnation addresses this. Jesus Christ Son of the Living God had/has two natures but is one Person. The Divine Logos is eternal.

 

[Albion]

and while we are talking about that, what if he were not a complete human like ourselves--what would the Resurrection be?

It would mean that something overcame physical death, but it would not suggest that we too would experience the same thing!

 

[JerseyChristianSuperstar]

I am a believer in Jesus Christ. I am a Christian. I believe in the Trinity and I believe Jesus died and was risen again on my behalf for salvation through faith by God's Word (the Bible) alone. I believe Jesus had a real physical flesh and blood body (Whose shed blood washed away my sins). However, there is one thing (besides OSAS) I have discovered that disturbs me greatly among my own brethren. What has troubled me is that my fellow fellow Christians reject Apollinarism. This is the belief that Jesus had one divine nature and or one divine mind, will, or soul. They somehow oddly reject this truth.

Why do I believe this? Was it because of some creed or church told me to believe this way? No. Most surely not. It is purely based on what I have come to know the Scriptures say and by logic, and knowing the love of God, and His good ways. I believe many of my fellow brothers and sisters reject this truth in Scripture because of what they have been taught by others and they did not search the Scriptures to see whether these things be so or not for themselves (in prayer and careful study).

So here are the verses for you to consider:

#1. Hebrews 7:26 - "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;"

Jesus is holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners. He was made higher than the heavens. He became us (in the fact that he had a flesh and blood body), but he was holy. A person or being who is truly holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from sinners does not have the capacity to sin. To say that Jesus had a human nature is to say that he had the ability to do evil. This means that in order to do evil or sin, one must have lusts or bad desires within them in order to carry out or act upon those wrong desires or lusts. Yet, the Bible says he was holy, undefiled and separate from sinners.​

#2. 1 John 2:16 - "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

This verse states that the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30).

So if Jesus is truly one with the Father (and He is), then Jesus cannot also have any lusts of the flesh, or lusts of the eyes, or the pride of life. These things are of the world. In fact, the devil tried to offer Jesus the kingdoms of this world, but He refused his offer.​

#3. Micah 5:2 - "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

This is a Messianic prophecy that talks about how Jesus will be a ruler over Israel one day. It says that the origin of this ruler (Jesus) is from of old, from everlasting. How does this refute the popular idea in Christianity that Jesus had a human nature, soul, or spirit? Because to say that Jesus has a human nature means that He is a newly created being that did not exist before the Incarnation. He would not have technically existed from everlasting if he joined with a newly created human counterpart in the Incarnation. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. His origins are from everlasting in the fact that He is the eternal Living Word (or the Word of God as Revelation says). Jesus. He always existed.​

#4. 1 John 4:2 - "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God."

It's a pretty fair conclusion to make that Jesus was unlike us. He was unique. This verse is not saying that he was like us. This verse does not say after he came into the flesh he became known as the man called, Jesus Christ. That is not what we are to confess. We are to confess that Jesus Christ is COME in the flesh. What this verse is suggesting (like other verses) is that Jesus Christ has always existed. Jesus Christ is COME (entered) into the flesh or body of a man. In fact, Jesus was laughed at when he said he knew Abraham. But Jesus said this to them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). After the crowd heard this: The crowd went ape crazy and they picked up stones to throw at him. In other words, Jesus is saying He has always existed. He did not come down into a newly created human soul or spirit and take on a human nature so as to potentially sin. That wouldn't make any sense.​

#5. 1 Peter 2:24 - "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

Many believe that the atonement is denied if one does not believe Jesus had a human nature. But having a human soul or human spirit is not a requirement in order for God to redeem us of our sins. How so? Peter says that Jesus took on our sins in his body on the cross. So the human spirit and or human soul is not necessary for our salvation. Jesus's blood is what washes away our sins and not the soul or some spirit. For a high price was paid for our sins, and that was with Christ's death.​

#6. 1 Timothy 3:16 - "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

This verse says that God was manifest in the flesh. It does not say God was manifest through a human soul or human spirit along with that flesh. God was manifest in the flesh. However, if Jesus took on a human soul, and human spirit, it really wouldn't be God manifesting in the flesh because He would be like every other believer who has God living inside of them. Jesus was unique and different from us. Jesus was literally GOD. He was manifest in the flesh.​

#7. John 14:30 - "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me."

Jesus is claiming that the devil has nothing inside of him. Meaning, Jesus does not have any of the lusts of the devil residing within himself (Which would be present in a normal corrupt human nature).

Jesus says to certain Jews, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. " (John 8:44).

So Jesus is describing something of his opponents that they do, which does not apply to Him.

For Jesus says, "If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42).

So lusts do not reside in Jesus. So the false belief that Jesus could have sinned because he had a human nature does not work.

14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15).​

I'm sure you've read a DC comic book once or twice, right? You know the superhero, Martian Manhunter? Cool guy.

Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onnz) is a Martian, not a human being, but he occasionally takes on the guise and physical form of a human being during which times he goes by the name John Jones, although he is not really human.

Are you saying that God was just pulling a Martian Manhunter here, wearing a disguise, and that He did not become truly human at the Incarnation 2000 years ago?

How, then, can we call Jesus "Immanuel", meaning "God with us", when He never really condescended to our level and was never truly a human being?

I believe Jesus was truly man and truly God, He did take on a human nature and will and mind.

Why do I say this? Look at this quote from Jesus:

Luke 22:42 - "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

Jesus was clearly distinguishing between His will and the Father's will: He is referring to His human will here, which is connected to His human nature.

If you're saying that Apollinarianism is true and Christ, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, took on a human nature and will, then you're are essentially saying there are three divine wills in the Trinity: that of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, as opposed to the orthodox position of there being one Divine will.

This, of course, leads to tritheism/polytheism, as three divine wills undoubtedly means three gods.

 

[redleghunter]

But they were not created higher than the Heavens like Jesus (as mentioned in Hebrews 7:26). Also, Adam would be included as a sinner. Jesus was said to be holy and separate from sinners. Jesus is the second man. This second man is the Lord from Heaven and not a newly created being within the universe.

What you quoted says Jesus was like "us."

Hebrews 7: NASB
26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Meaning He became human like us. Then the qualifiers follow...He is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners and made higher than the heavens. What the writer of Hebrews is contrasting prior to this is the human priestly service of Aaron and his sons. The "higher than the heavens" is the service of the high priest Jesus Christ.

Was the Incarnation of Jesus Christ 'special?'---Absolutely.

Think on what is communicated in this verse and entire chapter. Jesus human like us means body, soul-spirit as what was God's design from the beginning.