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Two Messiah?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Chinchilla, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    The scapegoat was taken into the wilderness and pushed over a cliff. How does this have anything to do with Jesus?
     
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  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    excerpts from online concerning Biblical "scapegoat"

    Verse 8

    for the scapegoat. Hebrew for "Azazel. This "for" looks like a personality answering to "for Jehovah". If it be the Evil one who is meant, then it is for his defiance. For in Leviticus 16:10 atonement is made for this goat, and he is to go free. Where there is atonement there must be forgiveness. See note on Leviticus 16:22 below.

    Verse 10

    to be the scapegoat. Hebrew "to be for "Azazel" (see Leviticus 16:8 and Leviticus 16:22).

    presented = made to stand.

    with him. Hebrew "for him". See verses: Leviticus 16:16, Leviticus 16:18. The scapegoat was not used to make atonement, but atonement was made for it. Hence he was to be "let go" free. See Leviticus 16:22.

    wilderness: or desert, symbol of abode of all evil things (Isaiah 13:21; Isaiah 34:14. Matthew 12:43. Luke 8:27; Luke 11:24. Revelation 18:2). "Azazel probably the personification of all that is "great and terrible" there (Deuteronomy 1:19; Deuteronomy 8:15. Jeremiah 2:6).

    Verse 21

    both his hands. This for solemnity; and only here, on this occasion.

    live goat. The two goats complete the one type of Christ. One could not, for He was "put to death as to the flesh", but made alive [again] as to the spirit", i.e. in resurrection (1 Peter 3:17. 1 Corinthians 15:45). He was "made sin" for us, that we might become divinely righteous in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

    all. Note the four "alls" in verses: Leviticus 16:21, Leviticus 16:22. Figure of speech Repetitio (App-6) to emphasize the completeness of our deliverance from sins, and their entire removal.

    iniquities. Hebrew. "avah. App-44. t

    ransgressions. Hebrew. pash"a. App-44.

    a fit man. The phrase occurs only here.

    Verse 22

    shall bear = shall bear away, as Isaiah 53:4.

    land not inhabited. Hebrew "a land cut off".

    let go. This is the point of the type. The live goat was sent away, not in judgment or atonement, but in peace and at liberty. "All" had already been atoned for in the death of the other goat (Leviticus 16:10). Now he was free to go into the land of forgetfulness, where their "sins and iniquities are remembered no more" (Isaiah 43:25. Jeremiah 31:34). The scapegoat goes forth to "Azazel, all enemies thus personified (Hebrews 2:14), proclaiming, "Who is he that condemneth? "(Romans 8:33, Romans 8:34). Not in fear of death, but saying, "Who dares to kill me? "It is the lesson, over again, of the "two birds" in Ch. Leviticus 14:51-53, applied to the whole nation. It is a type of those who are "risen with Christ" (Colossians 3:1), i.e. made alive again in His resurrection life. Tradition treats this second goat as loaded with sin and sent out to destruction; whereas "all" is "atoned" for and is therefore "forgiven" and liberty enjoyed before it was sent away.
     
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  3. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    Pushing it over a cliff doesn't fit in with Jesus or those set free. Does it?
     
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  4. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Can't God use other believer to tell me the truth ? Or do you assume that he will appear in cloud before you on your command to explain things you don't understand .
     
  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    If you find another believer who knows the truth, he might tell you the truth, yes.
    Better see what the Bible says all about this though -
    so you don't get carried away with multitudes of those who don't know the truth.

     
  6. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Could it be that Day of Atonement was not yet fulfilled ?
     
  7. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    One goat is for the offering, the other is to take the burden. The lots are a glorified way of choosing which one to use: both "goats" would be identical, and inherently innocent, so it was less about chance and more about decisiveness.

    As someone said, this (like many topics in the bible) is not sufficiently explained in the canon. You will need to read ENOCH, where it is stated that AZAZEL was the beast that glamoured himself as a serpent and seduced Eve (in every way.) It was him that got the Watchers together and got them to make a pact with him to take daughters of men, and pollute the seed of the son of man. The "SCAPEGOAT" translates to the Watcher Angel's name AZAZEL.

    This was a symbolic expression of the momentum that caused the fall of man.

    Because a demon is not a fallen angel, it is the spirit of their progeny - an abominable creation between angel and man. When those entities (demons/nephilim/rephaim/anakim/gods/etc.) die, their physical body from their mother dies, but their spirit from their angelic fathers does not die. Instead, it is forced to wander in the wilderness forever.


    These "rituals" were all reminders (in intricate detail) of the genesis and perpetuity of son of man - especially the fall from son of God to son of man. That SCAPEGOAT was forced to wander as a literal image of sin - just like demons wander as images of the literal abominations the principalities/angels/etc. did.
     
  8. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    So AZAZEL was the name Satan had before he become fallen angel ?
     
  9. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    SATAN means "adversary" in Hebrew, so there are actually many satans, and some are unique entities. Azazel was the one who allegedly seduced Eve and caused man to fall - which why he is a technical "satan."

    But, there are principalities, archons and powers much more powerful and "higher" than the watchers that also have a hand in the disruption of Creation. The Serpahim are an example of principalities that are in "high places," of whom some behave as satans. But, they are not where the Assemblies are; certainly not where the Most High resides.
     
  10. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Hi Vis, there are actually three goats on that day, (apart from the twice daily continual morning and evening offerings). The one whose blood was brought into the sanctuary is not to be eaten and the second is sent away alive into the desert-wilderness with all the sins of the people upon its mortally wounded head. The third is found elsewhere, (Num 29:7-11, (specifically Num 29:11)), and is the one which Moses was angry about because it was not eaten when Nadab and Abihu died, (Lev 10:16-18, and it may be that the tenth of the seventh month was then instituted because of this same event).

    The reason I bring all this up is because the Master really should not likely be considered a typology or fulfillment of either one of the goats from Lev 16 because even the one whose blood was brought into the sanctuary is not to be eaten or partaken of, (like the same symbolism of the manna or bread from heaven, the Word, as expounded in John 6). It is the goat from Num 29:11 that the Kohanim were to consume.

    What symbolic, (and true), function does the Master then fulfill in Lev 16? He is the Kohen: for he bears the sins of the people just as Ahron. But you will notice that Ahron does not bear the sins of the people permanently, no, but he does bear the sins of the people just long enough to place both his hands upon the head of the goat for Azazel and confess the sins of the people on the head of the goat, placing the sins of the whole nation for the whole year upon the head of the goat, (truly a "mortal head wound"), and then the goat is sent away into the desert-wilderness.

    The Kohen bears the sins of the people, but not permanently, and only long enough to send them away into the dry-arid places, and the Master does the same even in the Gospel accounts, for example Mat 9:1-8, if you read αφιημι in that passage as "to send away", as in "Son, take courage; your sins are sent away", (but "sin no more lest a worse thing come unto you", for as Moses says, "be sure that your sin will find you out", (And who shall live when El does this? lol)).

    Nice to see you are still posting here Vis.
     
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  11. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    So who is Prince of the Air ?
    Your explanation does not fit .

    Jesus said there is prince of the Air who rules this fallen world , which was also in Garden of Eden to tempt Eve . John 12:31 , Luke 4:5-6 , Ezekiel 28:16 , Ephesians 2:2
     
  12. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    The Prince of the Air is moniker for HORUS/ZEUS/JUPITER/TEIWAZ/etc - one of many names for this same spirit of Azazel.

    [​IMG]
    HORUS - what does his "glory" form remind you of (in the face)?

    Demons (some of which are his children) are forced to roam the wilderness unless that find some fool who will allow them to possess their vessel (possession.) These entities constantly did this and called themselves walking gods until people got hip to what they were, and stopped willingly offering their bodies for them. Often times, they come to people as wise spirits/geniuses (translation of DAEMON) or spirit guides, elementals, gods, dead family members, etc. It is all lies. They are the hybrids when alive, however - men of old, and of renown. They used to have their own body to deceive the world into following their alleged godhood.

    The "air" is a reference to this entity's heavenly location - very LOW heaven location for an angel, but of course higher than the carnal/human realm (what we call reality.) The prince of this world will be cast out. The word used for "world" is "cosmos," which implies a certain heavenly location with respect to reality.

    In other words, this is the same spirit of the entity that Adam abdicated His dominion of this world to. The actual angel is locked in chains. But, prince does not mean "The Prince" - and a kingdom can have many princes. Indeed, the Redeemer reminded us that the vipers, serpents, seraphs/dragons are waiting to devour us. Several different groups of celestials are trying to destroy us in their own way - for their own reasons. But, Azazel and his angel's deeds are done; The Most High put enmity between his seed and man's seed, and an Archangel locked the angels who mated with women in chains.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  13. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    The sacrifice is finished, the atonement is not complete until Yom Kippur.
     
  14. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    See how the Christians argue amongst themselves, in a Messianic Jewish forum.

    They say they know everything, but actually know very little. They have forgotten the Masters instruction in their own part of the Bible, that tells them how to answer their critics 2 Timothy 2:23-26.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  15. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    So all the religions worship the same fallen angel I see .
     
  16. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 3:28-29 King James Version (KJV)
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


    We don't argue but we reason together .
     
  17. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    I was always told to be courteous wherever you are, even more so when you are in someone's house. As guests on this forum the rules are not being obeyed, and if the post above this one fulfils your own rules then I am glad I'm not on a Christan forum.

    PS A misquote will not heal the problem.
     
  18. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    Most all religions follow a hand full of fallen entities that pass themselves off as deities, and have for quite some time. In fact, most all nations independent of the religious affiliation (if any) follow an Egyptian, Sumerian, Babylonian, Phoenician or Greco-Roman old paradigm (from human psychology to architecture and masonry.)
     
  19. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Both goats represent Yeshua. Here is my understanding of it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
  20. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Here is what the Mishnah says about the goats on Yom Kippur:

    https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Yoma.4?lang=bi

    [The High Priest] would come to the goat for Azazel and place his two hands on it, and confess. And this is what he would say: "Please God, we, Your people the House of Israel, have committed wrongdoing, transgressed, and sinned before You. Please God, please forgive the wrongdoing, transgressions and sins that we, Your people the House of Israel, have committed, transgressed, and sinned before You. As it is written in the Torah of Moses Your servant (Leviticus 16:30), 'On this day, you will be forgiven and cleansed from all your sins—before Hashem you will be cleansed.'" Then, the priests and the people standing in the courtyard, when they heard the explicit Name from the mouth of the High Priest, would bend their knees, bow down and fall on their faces, and they would say, "Blessed be the Honored Name of His Sovereignty forever."

    [The High Priest] would come to the goat for Azazel and place his two hands on it, and confess. And this is what he would say: "Please God, we, Your people the House of Israel, have committed wrongdoing, transgressed, and sinned before You. Please God, please forgive the wrongdoing, transgressions and sins that we, Your people the House of Israel, have committed, transgressed, and sinned before You. As it is written in the Torah of Moses Your servant (Leviticus 16:30), 'On this day, you will be forgiven and cleansed from all your sins—before Hashem you will be cleansed.'" Then, the priests and the people standing in the courtyard, when they heard the explicit Name from the mouth of the High Priest, would bend their knees, bow down and fall on their faces, and they would say, "Blessed be the Honored Name of His Sovereignty forever."

    They made a special ramp for him [who led the goat out], because of the Babylonians who used to pull at his hair, and say to him, Take [our sins] and go quickly, take [our sins] and go quickly. The leading citizens of Jerusalem would accompany him to the first booth. There were ten booths from Jerusalem to Tzuk [the cliff to which the goat was taken], a distance of ninety ris [2/15 of a mil], seven and a half ris per mil [two thousand cubits, for a total distance of twelve milin].

    At every booth, they would say to him, Here is food and water. And they would accompany him from one booth to the next, except for the last one, since the escort would not go with him all the way to the cliff, but rather, he would watch his actions from a distance.

    What did he do [when he reached the cliff]? He divided the thread of the crimson wool, tied half to the rock, and tied the other half between its horns, and he pushed it from behind. It went rolling down, and before it reached half-way downhill, it was dashed to pieces. He returned and sat in the last booth until it became dark. And at what point did his garments become impure? From the moment he left the walls of Jerusalem. Rabbi Shimon says: from the moment he pushed it off the cliff.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
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