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Twelve gates of Revelation 21

Discussion in 'Israel Prophecy & Current Events' started by Higher Truth, Jan 5, 2003.

  1. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

    962
    +8
    Messianic
    Revelation 21 mentions 12 gates. Revelation mentions the Twelve Tribes in a new order than the original. Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in this final list. What happened to them?
     
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  2. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

    962
    +8
    Messianic
    corerction: Revelation 7 mentions the Twelve Tribes in a new order
     
  3. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

    962
    +8
    Messianic
    Thanks Pray 4...originally Joseph split into Manasseh and Ephraim. Manasseh is listed, Ephraim is missing, and now Joseph is back. Thanks for the link.
     
  4. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Some anonymous person did a study on the 12 and may be somewhat of an enlightenment for you.

    The Twelve Tribes

    I will post the relevant part here but feel free to check out the rest:

    The Twelves Tribes in Revelation 7

    Twelve tribes are listed, but the list in unorthodox

    it doesn't follow "standard" orders
    it lists Levi and doesn't list Dan
    it lists Joseph and Manasseh, but leaves Ephraim out

    What possible reason could there be for this list?

    the out-of-order reasoning

    it has been noted that if verses 5c, 6 (Gad to Manasseh)
    were moved after verse 8
    then the rational (mother) order is almost restored
    this requires us to believe that a transcription error was made
    that some scribe got the order wrong while copying
    this still does not explain why Manasseh replaces Dan
    the antichrist reasoning
    Hebrew tradition suggests a reason for omitting Dan
    the antichrist is supposed to be of the line of Dan
    so leaving him out of this list makes "sense"

    the idolatry reasoning

    Dan was early connected with idolatry

    Judges 18
    some people think that this could explain their loss
    as a tribe they aren't (weren't) worry of this list
    neither of these last two explain Joseph, Ephraim, and Manasseh
    why is Joseph back?
    why is Manasseh here but Ephraim not?

    Let us look at this somewhat differently for there is a fact of Hebrew custom that we are ignoring and which we usually ignore when interpreting the bible unless we are hit over the head with it

    Genesis 29:31 - 30:24, 35:16-18
    the sons are named by their mothers (and father in one case)
    for particular reasons the names mean something

    Let us examine the list in Revelation along with the meanings

    Who's listed?

    Judah praise or Praise the Lord
    Reuben see, a son
    Gad good fortune
    Asher happy
    Naphtali my struggle or obtained by wrestling
    Manasseh causing forgetfulness
    Simeon one who hears or hears and obeys
    Levi attached or joined
    Issachar reward
    Zebulun honour or looking for a home
    Joseph may God add
    Benjamin son of the right hand

    Who's not listed?

    Dan he has vindicates or he that judges
    Ephraim doubly fruitful

    What's it mean?

    who does this list describe
    the 144,000 servants sealed by God
    what purpose does enumerating them serve?
    couldn't one have just said
    12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel?

    How about taking the meaning of the names into consideration

    Those who praise the Lord Judah
    seeing the Son Reuben
    in good fortune Gad
    and happiness Asher
    but wrestling Naphtali
    with forgetfulness. Manasseh
    Hearing and obeying Simeon
    and joined, Levi
    as a reward Issachar
    looking for a home, Zebulun
    added as the Joseph
    son of the right hand. Benjamin

    we've lost an interpretive tool over the past centuries
    we have forgotten what the names meant
    since our names rarely "mean" anything.
    except to expectant parents
     
  5. Blindfaith

    Blindfaith God's Tornado

    +76
    Non-Denom
    sonworshipper ~ I just wanted to pop in here and thank you for that post. It was excellent!!
     
  6. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Here is some more interesting information:
    When the ten tribes separated from the tribe of Judah in 931 BC, upon the death of Solomon, then wicked Jeroboam was their king. He raised up altars at Bethel, which was in the area of the tribe of Ephraim, and at Dan, which was in the area of the tribe of Dan. And this was a grievous sin in the eyes of God. Jeroboam is faulted again and again in the Bible for this. And so these two tribes became notorious for the fact that they were the locations of this original worshipping of other gods, or of false worship, actually.

    Now Dan is especially emphasized in the Bible as a figure of Satan himself, very surprisingly. And I don't know why Dan was named in this way, but it's interesting that in the twelve apostles there was one who was a servant of Satan, and that was Judas. And so it was in the Old Testament that God, for His own particular purposes, provided a figure of Satan amongst the tribes. And we find in Genesis 49:17, "Dan shall be a serpent in the way, a viper by the path." Now a serpent or a viper (that's a figure of Satan himself) "that bites the horse's heels so that its rider falls backward." I suppose that Dan, or Judas, in a real sense is a figure of any false prophets that come out of the church. They were amongst us, and then they came out and began to inveigle the congregation into trying to get them to accept another gospel. And this is where the greatest deceit comes from, right out of the body of believers.
     
  7. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

    962
    +8
    Messianic
    Dan and Ephraim were both connected with "golden calf" worship in the northern kingdom.
     
  8. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    This Site gives good insight on what the reasoning may be for. By using the "meaning" of the name it becomes a sort of "code message" that the Lord is trying to get across. Interesting.
     
  9. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    +30
    Messianic
    Thanks Blindfaith:) This is quite an interesting topic. As noted in my above post is is rather cyrptic, whereas I have seen others asked this question and they don't know, but the Lord, the great mathematician, and maker orf layers and layers of understanding in His word, I like that premiss that it is a "secret or special message" by reading them in the order given , BUT replacing the actual name with the meaning.
     
  10. Blindfaith

    Blindfaith God's Tornado

    +76
    Non-Denom
    I hope that you continue posting in this forum! :)  I'm learning so much from you, Mr. Max, P4I and others (plz don't feel left out if I didn't type your name:)).

    The thing that staggers me, and makes me pause is this; how much am I really missing by not studying the Hebraic (sp?) text, and all of the intricacies of scripture? 

    At church our pastor is doing a series on the Book of Genesis (it will take 2 yrs altogether), and he explains the how's and why's of when it was written, not just what we read.  Does that make sense?  Meaning, in a passage, it's written in such a way, that when the Jews read it, (for example), the middle of that passage (he was speaking of Noah at that time) will jump out at the reader, because their ear was "trained" to pick that up.

    How much am I missing in the translation?  I hold the written word of God in my NIV the innerent Word of God, but still.......how much is my ear missing?

    So.....after all of that rambling.......I pray that everyone here keeps posting, because you're teaching this lil' Gentile person much :)  {{{hugs}}}

    ~Peace in Christ,

    BF
     
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