Tucker Carlson falsely claims John Bolton was ‘man of the left’

[Albion]

Deaths from UN actions were a lot lower than that, in the hundreds.

Apologies. I meant to write 15 hundred (civilian) deaths.

There is an informative article in Counterpunch that is archived on their site.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/20/

 

[Tom 1]

Apologies. I meant to write 15 hundred (civilian) deaths.

There is an informative article in Counterpunch that is archived on their site.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/20/

Ah ok. The article is a bit OTT I think. My brother wrote a book about the whole conflict actually, humanitarne mućke, it was certainly a bit of a mess. The UN stepping aside to allow a massacre made their presence there seem a bit pointless. Deaths from the bombing raids though didn't go over 500. It's worth noting also that Serbia did start the war, a completely pointless and stupid act that no-one gained anything from.

 

[Albion]

All right, but the whole point was to refute the idea that it is inherent in conservative politics to start wars but not the case with liberals. The opposite is closer to the truth.

 

[redleghunter]

It's dumb tribalism.

A lot of that going on.

Tucker is a head cheerleader in Trump's tribe.

He’s been hard on Trump with not ending the endless wars and in most cases had taken him to task on tariffs. He also thought having Bolton as NSA was a horrible idea. Not such a cheerleader. Unlike most of the opinion shows which read from DNC provided talking points.

Was the intervention in the balkans considered to be a war in the US?
Sounds like a mixed bag,

The US and NATO not only bombed Serbia but continued to do so on Orthodox Easter Sunday when people were going to church.

Blair confirms bombing will not halt for Easter

Air Attacks Darken Easter for New York's Serbs

Casualties and losses
3 jet fighters destroyed
2 helicopters destroyed
21 UAVs destroyed
3 jet fighters damaged
2 soldiers killed (non-combat helicopter crash)
3 soldiers captured
956–1,200 killed
5,173 wounded
52 missing
120 tanks destroyed
220 APCs destroyed
450 artillery pieces destroyed (according to NATO)
121 aircraft destroyed
Economic losses of $29.6 billion[19]

Table better here:
NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Wikipedia

 

[Tom 1]

All right, but the whole point was to refute the idea that it is inherent in conservative politics to start wars but not the case with liberals. The opposite is closer to the truth.

Sure, the quotes weren't saying that liberals don't start wars, but that to date Republican governments have been somewhat more likely to intitiate some kind of military intervention than Democrat govts.

 

[Tom 1]

A lot of that going on.

He’s been hard on Trump with not ending the endless wars and in most cases had taken him to task on tariffs. He also thought having Bolton as NSA was a horrible idea. Not such a cheerleader. Unlike most of the opinion shows which read from DNC provided talking points.

The US and NATO not only bombed Serbia but continued to do so on Orthodox Easter Sunday when people were going to church.

Blair confirms bombing will not halt for Easter

Air Attacks Darken Easter for New York's Serbs

Casualties and losses
3 jet fighters destroyed
2 helicopters destroyed
21 UAVs destroyed
3 jet fighters damaged
2 soldiers killed (non-combat helicopter crash)
3 soldiers captured
956–1,200 killed
5,173 wounded
52 missing
120 tanks destroyed
220 APCs destroyed
450 artillery pieces destroyed (according to NATO)
121 aircraft destroyed
Economic losses of $29.6 billion[19]

Table better here:
NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Wikipedia

Those are the military casualties - it's important to remember that Serbia started the war, for no good reason at all. They were fighting against NATO forces, not very effectively but they weren't sitting down to dinner. Civilian casualties were around 500 in total. The bombardment was key in bringing the war to an end, as was the nuking of Japanese cities in WWII. This was a war, not a bunch of armed guys going for a stroll to meet the neighbours, and a war with a medieval level of unpleasantness at that.

 

[redleghunter]

It's dumb tribalism. Tucker is a head cheerleader in Trump's tribe. So when Trump decides to hire somebody even though there's a ton of valid objections like there totally was with Bolton the tribe goes rah rah rah & embraces the new hire bc he is now in their tribe. Then when invariably that person bolts bc Trump's got the worst staff turn over of any POTUS in history - the tribe wants to say he never was one of them to begin with. Then you can always always always bet tribe will chant "butter emails" or "OBAMA!" Bc those are the only cheers they know.

It seems with the exception of Mattis, every military or national security advisor Trump fired were hawks. Which should be considered in the turnover rate.

Bolton has wanted a shooting war with Iran since the George H Bush administration. Maybe before that. Trump showed restraint in the latest Persian gulf drone confrontation.

I think some on the Left are disappointed that Trump did not act according to their propaganda.

 

[Albion]

This President will be on his 4th National Security Advisor in less than 3 years and at a time when the potential for military conflict around the world is high!

Oh well, Obama had four Secretarys of Defense counting an acting secretary, and I think you will agree that the Secretary of Defense is important "at a time when the potential for military conflict around the world is high!"

 

[Albion]

Sure, the quotes weren't saying that liberals don't start wars, but that to date Republican governments have been somewhat more likely to intitiate some kind of military intervention than Democrat govts.

When someone shows that to be so, we can close this discussion. America entered World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War under Democratic presidents, so that is some kind of record that will be tough to equal.

Incidentally, we haven't had any new ones under President Trump, despite his critics talking all the time about him as if he were a warmonger.

 

[redleghunter]

Civilian casualties were around 500 in total. The bombardment was key in bringing the war to an end, as was the nuking of Japanese cities in WWII. This was a war, not a bunch of armed guys going for a stroll to meet the neighbours, and a war with a medieval level of unpleasentness.

The Serbian government had it about over 1,000. Human Rights Watch did have it about 500. Split the difference and you probably have the answer.

Frankly in the Balkan Wars there were few “saints.”

When the Russians intervened it just made things more difficult.

 

[Tom 1]

When someone shows that to be so, we can close this discussion. We haven't had any new ones under President Trump, by the way, despite his critics talking all the time about him as if he were a warmonger.

The linked reseearch paper claims that, it seems pretty thorough. Trump seems to be quite keen to avoid war, I don't recall coming across accusations of warmongering. To be clear it makes no difference to me which party has the worst war record, but the research I could find shows more interventions under Republican govts.

Frankly in the Balkan Wars there were few “saints.”

True, but the worst thing as I see it was the absolute pointlessness of it. People raping and murdering their neighbours over some centuries old feuds most people had forgotten about. It's one war that might have been prevented by the removal of a few key people.

 

[redleghunter]

Oh well, Obama had four Secretarys of Defense counting an acting secretary, and I think you will agree that the Secretary of Defense is important "at a time when the potential for military conflict around the world is high!"

To be fair to both sides, cabinet and advisors serve at the pleasure of the President.

True, but the worst thing as I see it was the absolute pointlessness of it. People raping and murdering their neighbours over some centuries old feuds most people had forgotten about. It's one war that might have been prevented by the removal of a few key people.

I remember when things first went bad in Croatia, a very good CBS investigative journalist did a piece on two families. One Croat and the other Bosniak. They were neighbors, shared meals often and considered themselves family. I mean close.

After the outbreak of violence the journalist found a video of the families celebrating together, dancing, kids playing with each other. The journalist then found out the neighborhood was a ghost town, both families holed up with their respective militias fighting each other.

 

[Albion]

To be fair to both sides, cabinet and advisors serve at the pleasure of the President.

"To be fair to both sides," all that is necessary is to know that there is nothing unique about President having had 3 national security advisors.

 

[Cimorene]

Oh well, Obama had four Secretarys of Defense counting an acting secretary, and I think you will agree that the Secretary of Defense is important "at a time when the potential for military conflict around the world is high!"

Who were the four you're saying were acting as Secretaries of Defense during the 8 yrs President Obama was in office?

 

[tulc]

Here this might help:
United States Secretary of Defense - Wikipedia
tulc(likes to help)

 

[Cimorene]

It seems with the exception of Mattis, every military or national security advisor Trump fired were hawks. Which should be considered in the turnover rate.

Bolton has wanted a shooting war with Iran since the George H Bush administration. Maybe before that. Trump showed restraint in the latest Persian gulf drone confrontation.

I think some on the Left are disappointed that Trump did not act according to their propaganda.

Lol. Who do you think hired the hawks Trump "fired"? Was it "the Left" who picked them in the 1st place? People on the left, the right, the center, from around the whole world were opposed to Bolton being picked. Maybe Trump was totally ignorant about Bolton's history but that's his fault. The opposition to Bolton was made LOUD and clear to Trump. The smarter people who'd voted for him objected too. The ones in his base who just drink whatever flavour Kool Aid he serves, who fully buy into his propaganda, totally applauded him. They enable every stupid & reckless decision Trump makes then are the first to want to blame "the left" when things invariably go wrong. Lol.