Trying to Understand the Lutheran Doctrine of Election, Lutherans Only

[Sean611]

I have read many other Lutheran threads on the topic of election/predestination and still find myself having questions. Any help/insight would be appreciated!

Here is what I understand:

-God desires all to be saved
-Christ's sacrifice was good for all, not limited atonement
-Before the foundations of the world, God chose his elect
-Humanity is so depraved that it requires God's grace and the Holy Spirit to intervene for our salvation. We cannot freely choose faith
-Individuals can fall away/reject God's gift of grace
-God has not damned or predestined those who are not saved to hell, rather they rejected God's gift themselves. This rejects double-predestination
-As Lutherans, we say the paradox of some being saved and others not is not revealed by Scripture and is mystery.
-Baptism really does save us and marks us as elect, while Word and Sacrament sustain us in faith and are the means of God's grace

Here are my questions/thinking on the issue:

-Are those who reject God's gift of grace, doing so freely? (by their own free will)
-If it is God's desire for all to be saved, is it appropriate to say all were elected by God and those that reject that gift have damned themselves. (or am I making assumptions that are not clear?)
-If it is God that does all the salvation work in us, how is it that some can even reject it? Do we in anyway cooperate or "give in" so to speak?

I've always struggled with the doctrine of predestination. While it is not as defined or terrifying as the Calvinist view, I still find myself struggling. I've even read the LCMS reports and explanations. Thanks in advance!

 

[LizaMarie]

You understand right this is what I was taught and confirmed as LCMS and now continue to be taught as WELS. YOu're in the same boat as I am.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Sounds about right to me!

What you're asking is Crux Theologorum; a paradox. You can read about it here:
http://www.stpaulslutheranchurch.net/cruxtheologorum.html

But in a word, salvation is entirely from God. Damnation is entirely from us. This is not apprehended through science, but faith in God and His promise alone. God is greater than math.

 

[ViaCrucis]

-Are those who reject God's gift of grace, doing so freely? (by their own free will)

I suspect this is one of those areas where the idea of "free will" is probably understood differently in Lutheran and Calvinist theologies. Someone correct me if I am in error here, but it is my understanding that we do not accept free will not because we believe human beings lack agency, but rather because human nature is thoroughly corrupted by sin. Thus we have an enslaved, sick, sinful will. Therefore the natural inclination, the inborn will of man is bent away from God; and therefore to refuse, reject, and turn away from God is the natural way, the natural will, of sinful man.

The reason why man cannot choose God by an act of "free will" is not fatalistic, that is, not because God has dictated what will happen, so that if I choose to eat corn flakes for breakfast it's because I was predetermined by God to eat cornflakes for breakfast. Rather it is because man is helpless, unable, and held down under the unbearably heavy yoke of sin--the will included. Thus the will is sinful, broken, sick, and unable to turn toward God--which is why we need the external act of God, something apart from ourselves, since there is nothing in us by which we can do anything whatsoever.

Thus the rejection of God's grace isn't an act of "free will", since freedom here is not about whether the will is bound or not by fatalistic/deterministic forces; but rather freedom, or rather the lack of freedom here, is about the sickness, depravity, and bondage of sin. To reject God is an act of natural will, since it is the natural, old man, who wills it; but it is not free because freedom of the will is found only in the liberty of Christ, and thus the new man who is created and new in Christ is free, and freely loves God and neighbor.

Again, if I am in error, I welcome correction.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Resha Caner]

I suspect this is one of those areas where the idea of "free will" is probably understood differently in Lutheran and Calvinist theologies.

I agree, and because of these differences, we understand predestination differently.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

If someone is saved it is 100% the grace of God, if someone is not saved it is 100% there own fault. The problem is that you're trying to make sense of it. The reason you're not understanding it is that you're trying to understand it. It's not supposed to make sense its supposed to be biblical. It's a paradox

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree, and because of these differences, we understand predestination differently.

Lutheranism isn't colored by philosophical speculation in that area, whereas Calvinists have always been prone to philosophical speculations. They primarily think of the relationship between God and man and many other subjects, dualistically. If God is omnipotent, humans must have no power. If God is glorified, humans must never share in that glory, etc. etc.

 

[Resha Caner]

Lutheranism isn't colored by philosophical speculation in that area, whereas Calvinists have always been prone to philosophical speculations. They primarily think of the relationship between God and man and many other subjects, dualistically. If God is omnipotent, humans must have no power. If God is glorified, humans must never share in that glory, etc. etc.

I don't disagree with what you said, but I would express a more nuanced differentiation. One thing I love about Lutheran theology is its willingness to remain silent when the Bible is silent, and its position that God doesn't reveal all things, but what he wants us to know. So, in that regard, you're right that Lutheran theology doesn't speculate where others do ... though as individual Lutherans I don't think we should avoid speculative discussions if it helps engage with others. Luther himself was willing to engage in that area.

One thing I don't particularly like about the way some Lutherans express their thoughts on topics like predestination is to say, "Well, sometimes God is illogical." I flat out disagree with statements of that flavor. If God is revealing what he wants us to know, he's not going to just babble. It's going to be logical. I'm OK with people saying something like, "I don't understand what that means yet," but it is possible for us to eventually reach understanding of all Scripture. In that regard, Reformed groups are more willing to engage with difficult passages than it seems Lutherans sometimes are.

 

[arabianhorselover]

I have been Lutheran my whole life, and still struggle with some of these things. I always want to be sure that I'm believing and doing the "right" things. I drive myself crazy.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I have read many other Lutheran threads on the topic of election/predestination and still find myself having questions. Any help/insight would be appreciated!

Here is what I understand:

-God desires all to be saved
-Christ's sacrifice was good for all, not limited atonement
-Before the foundations of the world, God chose his elect
-Humanity is so depraved that it requires God's grace and the Holy Spirit to intervene for our salvation. We cannot freely choose faith
-Individuals can fall away/reject God's gift of grace
-God has not damned or predestined those who are not saved to hell, rather they rejected God's gift themselves. This rejects double-predestination
-As Lutherans, we say the paradox of some being saved and others not is not revealed by Scripture and is mystery.
-Baptism really does save us and marks us as elect, while Word and Sacrament sustain us in faith and are the means of God's grace

Essentially correct.

Here are my questions/thinking on the issue:

-Are those who reject God's gift of grace, doing so freely? (by their own free will)

IMO, a better way to put it is they automatically are in the default position.

And it is essential to remember that the doctrine of Election in Lutheranism is I GOSPEL. Meant to comfort and assure. It must not be twisted inside out and upside down to try to make it terrorizing Law. The point of election is not that some aren't chosen, but that we have been.

Before my son was born, we LOVED him! With a crazy, non-sensical, sacrificial love. I'd do ANYTHING for that child - and he wasn't even born yet, had done nothing yet. We rearranged our lives..... I changed my office into a nursery..... we bought an SUV or heaven's sake (trading in my BELOVED Mazda Miata). And when he's 14..... and is mad at me at times (and maybe I'm mad at him).... when he wonders where he is in my heart..... I will remind him of when I traded in my Miata and changed my office to a nursery and loved him unconditionally, passionately, sacrificially... all regardless of what he did or didn't do. And maybe he'll have comfort in knowing my heart.

If it is God's desire for all to be saved, is it appropriate to say all were elected by God and those that reject that gift have damned themselves. (or am I making assumptions that are not clear?)

Well... that is stated at times. I prefer to just say they are in the default position.

Those who are never given physical life don't have physical life, but that's not the result of their free will or anything they did to themselves.

If it is God that does all the salvation work in us, how is it that some can even reject it? Do we in anyway cooperate or "give in" so to speak?

There is MUCH mystery. Lutherans are humble folk..... willing to accept mystery, willing to let God have the last word, willing to leave things where God does. The result is that while we ask loads of questions, we don't take our own puny "answers" too seriously - and especially not dogmatically.

God desires ALL to be saved - I say that because God did. Jesus died for ALL people - I say that because God does. ALL who live have received the gift to spiritual life for the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of life. ALL who are saved have received the gift of justification for Jesus Christ is the Savior - I say all that because God does. Not all are saved - I say that because God does. Can I wrap my puny, sinful, fallen brain around that. Nope. Does that bother me? Not in the least. Should I "connect the dots" so as to make God make sense or fix what God said and make it "logical?" No way.

Lutherans are humble folk.

Thanks in advance!

IF I said ANYTHING remotely helpful, I'm very pleased.

Blessings to you and yours.


- Josiah (the Returner)

 

[FireDragon76]

Well, sometimes mysticism is its own metaphysics. And metaphysics is something people have trouble taking seriously now days intellectually, being as its tied to various forms of oppression and violence.