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Timtofly

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Antiochus is not in Revelation.

What is in Revelation is the image made of the beast person, that the false prophet will seemingly do a miracle making it come to life and speak. The beast person is not Antiochus.

If you were a Jew living in Judea at that time - would you flee into the mountains, or stick around for futher events?
The beast person can only be Antiochus. This time as a false prophet. That is why no one gets Revelation correct. The antichrist can only be seen as a Messiah first. It is not as a world leader. The false prophet like John the Baptist has to Herald a soon coming Messiah. The false prophet comes first, because John witnesses the coming of the FP first. After the FP comes Satan himself. Then the False Messiah is introduced. Revelation 13 places it in that order, and that is the correct order.
 
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BABerean2

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The great tribulation has not happened yet. The setting up of the abomination of desolation in the holy place triggers the great tribulation. Matthew 24:15-22.

If you corrupt Daniel 9:27, and ignore the context of Matthew 24:15-16, you might be able to make some people believe it, but it is not found in the Bible.

At some point in time a great deception will come upon the whole world, which will convince all nations to join in a one world government.
This will produce a time of great tribulation for the people of God.

.
 
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Douggg

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jgr

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Likewise, I challenge you to find any apologist that correctly defines the Antichrist concept as being rooted in the Christ concept of being the promised King of Israel.

To believe that, they would have had to believe that antichrist is found in Daniel 9.

They didn't.
 
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Douggg

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It was in the Bible, and fulfilled during 70 AD.

How many wars have you heard of where women ate their own children?


.
All life on earth was not threaten to be wiped out back in 70 AD.
 
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Douggg

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To believe that, they would have had to believe that antichrist is found in Daniel 9.

They didn't.
There would be no need for an apologist to refer to Daniel 9. The concept of the antichrist is rooted in the concept of the Christ being the promised great King of Israel. John 12:13, Mark 15:32-33. Christ the king of Israel. Who comes in the name of the Lord. The antichrist, the King of Israel, who comes in his own name.


1John2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

____________________________________________________________________

John4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
 
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BABerean2

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All life on earth was not threaten to be wiped out back in 70 AD.


Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 
Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )


Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 


Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )


Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )


Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 
Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 
Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 
Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 
Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 
Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.) 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )


Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 


Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 


Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.



John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

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Douggg

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Your circuit breaker has kicked in Bab2.

Reality is that all life on earth was not threaten to be wiped out in 70AD.
 
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Timtofly

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Satan cannot raise the dead. If he can re-incarnate a human from the past and prove it, that would be the closest thing to wowing the world. It would also bring east and west together. The west accepting reincarnation over science. The east already accepts reincarnation. Science will have been shattered in seal 6. It will take a bit for Satan to rally the troops so to speak. After a few years of God’s judgment and beings coming out of sheol, it will not be knowledge but superstition.
 
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jgr

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There would be no need for an apologist to refer to Daniel 9. The concept of the antichrist is rooted in the concept of the Christ being the promised great King of Israel. John 12:13, Mark 15:32-33. Christ the king of Israel. Who co


You may be assured that no historical apologist of the true Christian Church ever remotely believed that the concept of antichrist was rooted in these verses.
 
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Douggg

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Satan cannot raise the dead. If he can re-incarnate a human from the past and prove it, that would be the closest thing to wowing the world.
Re-incarnation means bringing someone's soul back to be born into a second life. Transmigration of the soul. What makes you think Satan has that sort of power? And evidence of Satan having done it in the past.

Who for certain has the power to bring persons back to life? God does. Isaiah 14:19-20.
 
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Douggg

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You may be assured that no historical apologist of the true Christian Church ever remotely believed that the concept of antichrist was rooted in these verses.
I haven't heard of anyone either. Which is why mis-application of the term Antichrist has persisted as a almost universal come error.

That main common error people make is labeling the arch villain of the end times - as being the Antichrist across the expanse of his biography. As they don't have the proper concept of what being the Antichrist means. It does not mean evil one world ruler as being the role of the beast in Revelation, nor as being the little horn person emerging out of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7.

Antichrist the singular coming person means being the King of Israel, coming in his own name. Against and instead of Jesus the rightful King of Israel coming in the name of the Lord.

A person can never properly understand the end times until they grasp the meaning and concept of the Antichrist.
 
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jgr

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I haven't heard of anyone either. Which is why mis-application of the term Antichrist has persisted as a almost universal come error.

That main common error people make is labeling the arch villain of the end times - as being the Antichrist across the expanse of his biography. As they don't have the proper concept of what being the Antichrist means. It does not mean evil one world ruler as being the role of the beast in Revelation, nor as being the little horn person emerging out of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7.

Antichrist the singular coming person means being the King of Israel, coming in his own name. Against and instead of Jesus the rightful King of Israel coming in the name of the Lord.

A person can never properly understand the end times until they grasp the meaning and concept of the Antichrist.

I'll opt for more than 1700 years of true Christian Church orthodox wisdom over less than 200 years of modernist speculation.
 
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Douggg

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I'll opt for more than 1700 years of true Christian Church orthodox wisdom over less than 200 years of modernist speculation.
They both have error concerning the concept of the Antichrist.
 
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Douggg

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There was no error in the accuracy of the Reformers' identification of the predominant antichrist of their era.
Their error was in their concept of "the" Antichrist.

btw, did the pope deny the Father and Son? Or that Christ came in the flesh?

Did the popes of their time work evil - yes, that's for sure. Are RCC doctrines influenced by the spirit of Antichrist, aside from denying the Father and Son, and that Christ came in the flesh ? A person could probably make a case for that.

The popes, however, are not qualified to be "the" Antichrist. The person has to be a Jew and his religion Judaism. Not recognizing the concept of the Antichrist was the error of the Reformers.
 
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jgr

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Their error was in their concept of "the" Antichrist.

btw, did the pope deny the Father and Son? Or that Christ came in the flesh?

Did the popes of their time work evil - yes, that's for sure.

Explain how the sacrifice of millions of lives to liberate the true Church from the spiritual enslavement of the apostate papal antichrist was an error.

Pius X: "The Pope...is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."

That is a definition of antichrist.
 
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Douggg

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Explain how the sacrifice of millions of lives to liberate the true Church from the spiritual enslavement of the apostate papal antichrist was an error.
It is something that happened on a massive scale due to the wickedness of the popes and hierarchy on down to the lowest ranks who carried out the evil.

But you are conflating the issue of the reformers not understanding the concept of the Antichrist.
 
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