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Featured Truth

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Celticroots, Jul 21, 2017.

  1. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    Jude 1:4 speaks to the idea of cheap grace, a license to sin where one can sin and be impenitent but still unconditionally saved.

    Examples of cheap grace:

    Bill Foster, Baptist preacher in Louisville, KY: "If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn't go to hell -- in fact, I couldn't go to hell if I wanted to. If on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn't do it" (The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959).

    Sam Morris, Baptist preacher, Stamford, TX: "We take the position that a Christian's sins do not damn his soul. The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul... All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may perform will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger... The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul... The way I live has nothing whatsoever to do with the salvation of my soul" [Do a Christian’s Sins Damn His Soul?].
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I never said otherwise that Scripture was not by inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that it's knowledge is by the Spirit.

    Faith without works is dead (James 2:17) and a dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God.

    As for the imputation of Christ's sacrifice: Well, 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Is a believer always walking in the light 24/7 even if they sin?

    So a believer can exercise their free will to murder, rape, steal, worship idols, hate their brother, not forgive, etc. and still be saved while they do these sins because they have a belief in Jesus?

    I can say the same for you.

    Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
    "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
    "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
    "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
    "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
    "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
    "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
    "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
    "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
    "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
    "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
    "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
    "...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

    And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.

    Keep reading.

    Romans 11:21-22 says that we are to continue in his goodness, otherwise we will be cut of like the natural branches (i.e. Israel).

    “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”
    ‭‭
    Romans 8:1 says there is no Condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Key word here is WALK.

    “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

    Jesus also said in John chapter 5:

    “Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).

    You also have to keep reading where it talks about the "Condemnation." It says,

    “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (John 3:19-21).

    If you missed it, it says in verse 20, everyone who does evil hates the light.

    This is not turning God's grace into a license to sin. Ephesians 2:2-3 says that in times past we walked according to the course of this world fulfilling the desires of the flesh.

    “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”
    ‭‭
    False grace is turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4) (NIV).

    The true grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12).

    This would be here in this life time (1 Peter 4:1-2).

    In other words, Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about "Initial Salvation" or "Ultimate Salvation" and it is not taking about the Sanctification process (Which is the next step or stage in the salvation process).


    ...
     
  3. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    Thank you. I have been here almost since 2000. I confess I have grown weary of addressing the problem point by point.
    Thank you for your service. (Something I never say to soldiers because war is a racket.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  4. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    All fine, except when we allow "perfect" to become the enemy of good.
    Know what I mean?
     
  5. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    I have managed to not sin for longer than I can hold my breath! (Just kidding).
    I agree with you in principle, but can't help wonder how it's working out for you. The only other uncomfortable point I can think of is how we are or at least can be, ignorant of a sin we might be committing. Probably most common is like when I mistake pride for righteousness.
     
  6. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    Perfect becomes the enemy of good when contentment with the liberty in Christ is punished for not making the ideal real.
    The ideal is a true guide not to be dismissed, however acceptance of the real is the only way to proceed toward it.
    I wanted you to know your point was appreciated.
     
  7. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I think truth is in the Bible. It says that Jesus came to proclaim forgiveness of sins (that became the reason why people wanted to kill him).

    "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
    Luke 4:18-19

    Leaders didn’t like when Jesus declared sins forgiven.

    The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
    Luke 5:21-25

    And eventually Jesus got killed because of the mission to forgive.

    Forgiveness saves person from the judgment that would come because of sin.

    Jesus also taught that after forgiveness we should not continue in sin.

    "Behold, you are made well. Sin no more, so that nothing worse happens to you."
    John 5:14

    She said, "No one, Lord." Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
    John 8:11

    By teachings of Jesus, person can get right understanding. And after that, person understands why something is wrong and therefore doesn’t want to do that. That can be seen as righteousness and according to the Bible:

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46
     
  8. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    I struggle with temptation, but I am never happy for long when I give in. I think that is the Lord's way of leading me back to repentance. Each time I fail I try to look back and "diagnose" why it happened. I have failed a lot, but I keep repenting. I think it is a winnable battle.

    As for not being aware of sins we are committing, I think the Lord probably is good at bringing our sins to our attention. If he seems to be okay with what you are doing, then perhaps there is nothing to worry about.
     
  9. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    Hi! If someone asks, tell him or her to read Romans 10:8-13. Have they done that? Did they even know about that scripture?

    Be blessed!
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  10. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    Jude 1:4
    New American Standard Bible
    "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

    There are other translations which really bring the point home! Check them out at http://biblehub.com

    Jude 1:4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    Those who creep in unnoticed are ungodly, grievous sinners, who have not confessed Jesus as Savior, nor acknowledged Him as Jewish Messiah. They deny Him. Their idea of Grace is cheap; that doesn't make Salvation by Grace through Faith cheap. No cheap doorway into Grace is provided by their profound ignorance. It is only their idea, having zero to do with Grace. The same is true for anyone who endorses "cheap grace." There is no such thing as "cheap" grace. I know a couple of pastors who are going to be pale and trembling at the Judgment Seat of Christ. I won't describe their one reward here.
     
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  11. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    I'll just comment that you are taking scripture out of context, Jason. One great example is in those passages in which the word "walk" is included. There is no indication that the "walk" must be consistent. The word in context is not conditional; on the contrary, it denotes standing. One's standing in Christ never changes.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    If you believe I took those verses out of context, then you need to prove that with the context.

    As for Romans 8:1:
    It says very clearly, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them... who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." This is the condition for not being under the Condemnation. One has to walk not after the flesh but they have to walk after the Spirit.

    Again, the Condemnation is confirmed for us in John 3:19-21. It says in verse 20 that all who do evil hate the light. Is not one promoting evil if one's gospel message can accidentally lead a person to treat God's grace as a license to sin if they do not explain themselves properly?

    In other words, if I say to people they are saved by having a belief on Jesus and it is not in what they do, and I say nothing more; They can walk away with the false impression that God's grace is a license to sin.

    That is just one of the many problems I have with Eternal Security.


    ...
     
  13. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    I have no problem at all with eternal security. In the reference there is no condemnation for those who walk (continuously, granted by God, always in effect, never lacking, upon confession of Faith). "Walk" is not conditional. It has no relationship to failure. One who is saved DOES walk Spiritually. The Holy Spirit will never be withdrawn. The Christian may stumble, but repentance is only a prayer away.

    Those who are lost in sin are unsaved and therefore hate exposure to the Light found in Christ Jesus. "Accidentally" misinforming a person when one is witnessing happens only when one relies upon his or her interpretation, rather than that provided by the Holy Spirit, the Christian's interpreter and applier.

    "What they do" is entirely provided by their Spiritual relationship to God through the Holy Spirit who is ever-interceding. Failure to yield to Gospel Truth, Spiritually acquired, is the problem. One presents the Plan of Salvation provided by the Apostle Paul, and underlines it with scriptural references in a witnessing situation. The one providing the information must be authentically born again, Spiritually birthed, rejoicing in what God provides in Spirit and in Truth. Yielding to mental-mechanical explanations is at the center of faulty conveyance of God's Most Holy Word.
     
  14. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    True, not to worry and equally, not to be unconcerned.
    Keep an eye on it.
    You don't seem at all enslaved by perfectionism.
    Holy Spirit is trying to teach me not to leap to negative conclusions.
    Thank you for your charitable response.
    Pleasure to make your acquaintance.
     
  15. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    Then don't say nothing more. Explain to them their post salvation behavior will affect their rewards in heaven. Better than the false impression that what they do is a basis for determining if they are worthy when none are worthy is the whole point of free will being irrelevant to the question of getting into heaven or not.
    We think getting into heaven is salvation when it is not. Believing on Jesus is salvation.
     
  16. S.O.J.I.A.

    S.O.J.I.A. Dynamic UNO

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    great, another synergist vs. monergist thread.

    it must be soteriology month.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So you are saying that they should be led away into thinking they can sin and still be saved?
    So a person can be an axe murdering, child abusing, pot smoking rapist and still be saved as long as they believe on Jesus?


    ....
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You should.

    If that is the case, then why does Paul bother to tell the reader that if they were to live after the flesh, they will die?

    12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:12-13).

    It says all who do evil hate the light. This is not just the unbelieving sinner but this truth in John 3:20 also applies to everyone (including believers). For all who do evil hate the light.

    No. Any true doctrine of God cannot lead a person into sin.

    But don't you also believe that you will always sin as a part of your interpretation on 1 John 1:8?


    ...
     
  19. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    I don't think that even remotely resembles what I said, or ever would say, weirdly enough.

    Are you being facetious?
    Did I say something to trigger this?
    This is not conversation.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Does works and holiness play a part in salvation?
    If they don't then one can conceivably do whatever sin they want and still be saved, right?


    ...
     
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