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Truth, Tried and True!

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by WordSword, Dec 2, 2020.

  1. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

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    In our relationship with the first Adam we had no freedom at all, the members of the old Adam being under obligation to furnish personal righteousness before God, as moral beings responsible to Him (in doing all he was told to do, e.g. “dress and keep” the Garden – Gen 2:15; avoid the Tree of knowledge of good and evil – v 16, 17; naming all the creatures – v 19, etc.—NC). But our position as believers is declared by Paul to have been perfectly secured in the risen Lord Jesus Christ; our responsibility in the fallen Adam and in connection with him having been met and discharged in our Federal Head, the Lord Jesus, who became sin for us at the Cross (2Co 5:21), “that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (not literally becoming sin but rather made out to be sin, by imputation, i.e. sin or “iniquity laid on Him”- Isa 53:6 - and not in Him, for deity cannot become sin—NC).

    To declare, therefore, that new creatures in Christ Jesus are under the law, either for salvation, or as a rule for Christian living is like unto prescribing rules to an apple tree. Simply seek to have the conditions of growth fulfilled and it will then bear fruit. So a human soul in order to “bear fruit unto God” (Rom 7:4), must live in that truth that sets it free (the tree doesn’t need rules to show it’s an apple tree, just application of what causes it to show what it is, e.g. dirt, water and sunlight, etc.—NC).

    The Christian has been born from above and was never meant to be in any other state than the freedom of heaven, in his life and service. This is shown by the words “even so” or “likewise” in Romans 6:11. We are told in verse 10 that Christ having been made sin died unto sin “once for all” (Heb 10:10), but “the life He liveth, He liveth into God” (Rom 6:10). For that reason, since we are in Christ Jesus, having died with Him, we are to live as risen beings who died with Him; being now ourselves “alive unto God” in Him (Rom 6:11). The word “likewise” here (v 11) shows that “even as He is, so are we in this world” (1Jo 4:17). Presently He is not under law (as He was before His resurrection—NC), yet He delights in the will of the Father in the very spirit and essence of it, as His inner and absolute pleasure.

    Pauls’ blessed doctrine that those who are in Christ Jesus are dead to the law and discharged therefrom (concerning the Jewish Christians—NC), is absolutely necessary to those who would “walk in the Spirit” and make progress in their spiritual growth. To be filled with the Spirit at one time, does not prove that we will be walking in the Spirit at a later time (we live in the Spirit, but we are taught the rest of our lives to walk in Him - Gal 5:25—NC). For example, Peter was filled with the Spirit on the day of Pentecost; but later, at Antioch, we find him “walking not uprightly according to the Gospel (Gal 2:14 – believers are always “after the Spirit” but none are always in step with Him, due the old man – Rom 8:5).

    No blessing can take the place of the truth. “Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” So, our Lord’s promise is, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” If we have been taught to believe what is contrary to the written Word of God, although we may have blessings now and then, we cannot become established (“be conformed” in our walk – Rom 8:28—NC) in the risen Lord Jesus (Eph 4:15) until we see and receive the truth.

    How can the Holy Spirit lead the saints of God except He leads them into truth? He is “the Spirit of truth!” To teach believers that they are under the law as a rule of life is to teach what is contrary to the Word of God (Gal 5:18); for the Spirit of God declares unto us in Romans 6 and 7, that we have died to the law that made such demands on us (e.g. perfect obedience, a non-expected impossibility—NC), that we could do nothing but sin, even in seeking to keep it! So that the Spirit saith, “Sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under the law but under grace.”

    We had to be discharged from the law so that we could serve the Father in the true spirit of service, which is always liberty and gladness (instead of fear of judgement—NC). The same blessed Spirit of God has distinctly written to us, that “we were made dead to the law by the body of Christ” (Rom 7:4; Heb 10:10); that our death with Him was a fact, and that we who are now in Him share that death, He being our Federal Head, “our Life” (Col 3:4), instead of Adam the first (1Co 15:45); because we, having died with the Lord Jesus, have been positioned before the Father with Him.



    —Wm R Newell (1868-1956)
     
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  2. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Of course JESUS preached "Christians" (those calling Him "Lord")
    fall into TWO (2) different categories... the saved "wheat" sown by
    God and destined to eternal life AND the unsaved "tares" sown by
    Satan and destined to eternal torment along with Satan.


    So the CONTEXT of "we" and "us" and "our" represents ONLY

    the saved "wheat" in the church and NONE of the unsaved "tares".
    Nobody can understand the Gospel of the Bible without FIRST
    understanding this CONTEXT.



    Jim
     
  3. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

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    Hi and God bless! Appreciate your reply, but not sure of the passage to which you're referring concerning we, us, etc. . My understanding of the wheat and tares is different from yours, in that I believe the tares are those who've never been saved. To me, the intension of "falling" or "departing" is also different from most, in that only one who is a hypocrite (false professor of the faith who has never truly believed) does this. Those truly professing faith never leave, fall or depart.
     
  4. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    I have not "interpretation" of the word "tares".
    All I have is the DESCRIPTION of (unsaved) "tares" provided
    by JESUS in Matthew 13:18-23 and 13:36-43 where Jesus
    makes it clear the "tares" are sown by Satan and are the
    "children of Satan", destined to the same eternal torment
    as Satan.



    And I never suggested that saved "wheat" ("elect" or "chosen")
    ever fall-away. It is the unsaved "tares" in the church that often
    fall away. Romans 8 makes it clear that the "elect" or "chosen"
    never fall away and Jesus made it clear they have ETERNAL life...
    if it is really "eternal" (as Jesus taught) it cannot be temporal.


    Jim
     
  5. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

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    I agree and thanks for the reply!
     
  6. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    God's nature is truth. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23), which means means that the Mosaic Law truth (Psalms 119:142). Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so he put the nature of God on display through his works in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is why he is truth made flesh and could say everything that he did in John 14:6-11. The Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and again the Mosaic Law truth. In John 8:31-36, the truth is what sets us free, while it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage. In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being of corrupted minds and disqualified in regard to the faith. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it.

    So it doesn't make sense to interpret Galatians 5:18 as speaking about the Mosaic Law, as if the Spirit has the role of leading us to rebel against the Father. In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's law and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, and which he served with his flesh. In Romans 7:7, it says that God's law is not sinful, but that it is how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease. However, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so it is sinful and causes sin to increase. So verses that speak about a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from living for God are referring to the law of sin, not to the Mosaic Law, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4-5, 1 Corinthians 15:56, and Galatians 5:16-18.

    God's righteous laws reveal His righteousness and teach us how to testify about His righteousness, so doing what is righteous in obedience to the Mosaic Law has always been testifying about God's righteousness, and has never been about trying to furnish our own personal righteousness. When we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God declares us to be righteous by grace through faith, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law. In other words, the reason why we have received the righteousness of God was not in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our obedience in accordance with Christ's example. So our good works testify about God's goodness, which is why they bring glory to God (Matthew 5:13-16).

    Everything in Romans 6 is speaking in favor of obedience to God and against sin. In Romans 6:19-22, being salves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with being slaves to righteousness and to God, which leads to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life, which is the gift of God. So being a slave to righteousness in obedience to God's law for sanctification and eternal life is itself the gift of God. Furthermore, in John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so again obedience to God's commandments is itself the gift of God and that it looks like to believe in Jesus and to have a relationship with him. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is God's free gift. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so God's graciously teaching us to obey His law is again the content of His free gift of salvation. In 1 John 2:3, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey his commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor known him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so again the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to have a relationship with Christ, which is why he is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith (Romans 10:4).
     
  7. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

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    Hi, and thanks for your reply and comments. Though my understanding of Eze 36:26, 27, which is the same prophetic chronological reference as Jer 31:31-33 is different from yours, I like much of what you've commented. I believe these are referencing the millennial kingdom at Christ's return.
     
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Hello, I agree that Ezekiel 36:26-27 and Jeremiah 31:31-33 are referring to the same thing, though I disagree that they are referring to the millennial kingdom. The way to testify about God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on any particular covenant, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to testify about His nature are eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under or of whether those verses refer to the millennial kingdom. If the Mosaic Law teaches us how to testify about God's nature, and if we should live in a way that testifies about God's nature, then we should therefore live in obedience to the Mosaic Law.
     
  9. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

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    The next difficulty is that the Mosaic or Torah Has been "taken away" (Heb 10:9; 8:7).
     
  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    While we are under the New Covenant and not under the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same instructions for how to testify about his nature. Sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became in accordance with or against God's nature when the law was given, but rather the Mosaic Law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of covenants being made or taken away that changes which actuations are in accordance or against God's eternal nature. Instructions for how to testify about God's nature can't be abolished without first abolishing God.

    In Hebrews 8:7-10, it does not say that the found that God found was on His end of the covenant with His nature or with His laws, but rather God found fault with the people for for not continuing in their covenant, so the right solution is not to abolish God's nature or with His instructions for how to testify about His nature, but rather the right solution is to do away with what was hindering us from continuing in our covenant. This is why the New Covenant involves God sending His Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to obey His law and meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4), sending His Spirit to lead us to obey His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it (Hebrews 8:10). So Hebrews 8:7-10 is not speaking about the Mosaic Law being taken away, but rather the New Covenant still involves following it.
     
  11. WordSword

    WordSword Well-Known Member

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    I think I understand you and thanks for the explanation. God bless!
     
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