Trump's shutdown: Navajo Nation residents trapped in their homes as federal snowplows stop running

rambot

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You have no ability to diagnose, only to suppose.
I indicated I can't diagnose. But that doesn't meant that his behaviours are NOT in line with those of a sociopath; Just that I can't diagnose him as a sociopath.

And it doesn't matter whether I diagnose OR suppose; his behaviours should still be worrisome.
 
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Nithavela

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It's not his place or job to direct money. That responsiblity is Congress's.
Well, Gentleman? What is it? How much of his own money has Trump spent in support of those suffering from the shutdown?
 
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Root of Jesse

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This whole shutdown is precisely because he's trying to direct money.
Right, and the government is shut down because he can't. At least not normally.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Well, Gentleman? What is it? How much of his own money has Trump spent in support of those suffering from the shutdown?
How much money have you spent in support of those suffering from the shutdown?
 
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Root of Jesse

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I indicated I can't diagnose. But that doesn't meant that his behaviours are NOT in line with those of a sociopath; Just that I can't diagnose him as a sociopath.

And it doesn't matter whether I diagnose OR suppose; his behaviours should still be worrisome.
Not at all, really.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Odd, then, that the House, backed by the Democrats, specifically passed a bill yesterday to fund the Border Patrol and border security, that is completely separate from the bill to reopen the government. Granted, they don't give Trump the extra money to build his wall -- but it shows you point for the falsehood it is. The fact is, Democrats want a secure border as much as Republicans, they just agree with most experts that Trump's wall is a waste of money -- particularly since most illegal aliens now are coming in legally and then overstaying their visas.
If the bolded were true, it would be secure already. The fact is that the leadership of the Dem party already voted for the border wall while Bush and Obama were president, at least giving it lipservice, if not money. The fact is, they hate Trump more than they want to open the government or close the border.
 
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durangodawood

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Right, and the government is shut down because he can't. At least not normally.
So why isnt the govt always shut down if the reason is "because he cant (direct money)" ?

I mean according to you, its always the case that the pres cant direct money, barring "national emergency".
 
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Nithavela

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How much money have you spent in support of those suffering from the shutdown?
None, I prefer to laugh at them suffering.

But I'm not the topic, Trump is. You made the assertion that he cared, I asked how much, you demanded a metric, I gave you the metric.

Your turn.
 
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SimplyMe

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If the bolded were true, it would be secure already. The fact is that the leadership of the Dem party already voted for the border wall while Bush and Obama were president, at least giving it lipservice, if not money. The fact is, they hate Trump more than they want to open the government or close the border.

And there is zero support for your claims. As was pointed out, when offered a decent compromise -- making the DACA provisions permanent, the Democrats were willing to give Trump $25 billion (or even as high as $50 billion, by some estimates). Of course, as has been pointed out, Trump himself is the one that shot that down (after agreeing to it) because he was called by Conservative Media, such as Fox News, "Amnesty Don." Trump has no one to blame but himself that his wall isn't already funded.

Sure, the Democrats have agreed a wall is beneficial in various areas -- even giving funding for some 700 miles of wall during the Obama administration. Agreeing that walls can be helpful in areas where people illegally cross the border makes sense. It doesn't make sense to build wall in the middle of barren, arid land where no one is trying to cross the border -- which is what we'd being doing by building another 1200 or so miles of border wall (which is what Trump has claimed he wants). It's about like me trying to claim that Republicans are hypocrites because they want a wall on the Southern border but not the Northern one -- odd the "double standard" by Republicans.

Now, if you want the real truth, neither political party appears that interested in actually solving the issue -- even though both sides bloviate about border security. If we were really serious about fixing the illegal immigration issues, we'd be punishing businesses (and even individuals) that hire illegal aliens -- without jobs here most of these immigrants won't be coming to the US illegally. It doesn't do them any good to come to the US if they can't find work. At the same time, we'd make an enforceable guest worker program. The truth is that businesses (including Trump's, as had made the news recently) depend on that "cheap illegal immigrant" labor to keep their costs down, and won't let their bought and paid for politicians entirely fix it.

So, no, this has nothing to do with "Trump hate." Rather, it has more to do with the Democrats making compromises three different times, with Republicans and with the "blessing" of the White House, to fund the government -- twice Trump has, after indicating he'd sign the legislation has backed out. The middle time, they made the compromises based on a promise to promote debate on DACA legislation in the Senate, something that still has not happened (largely because Trump refuses to sign any such bill -- despite promises in 2017 that he would sign DACA legislation if Congress passed it).

It's not on the Democrats that Republicans, and in particular Trump, are not negotiating in good faith (pulling out at the last moment), or that Republicans (again, mostly Trump) isn't living up to promises he made. The Democrats already compromised on the current package to get the government open, with the White House signalling Trump would sign it. Why should they have to re-negotiate the deal that was struck now, merely because Trump, after the deal was done, added new requirements?
 
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Root of Jesse

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And you say that based on what education, experience, reasoning, or consultation with other professionals who have witnessed the same behaviour?
About the same as you.
 
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Root of Jesse

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And there is zero support for your claims. As was pointed out, when offered a decent compromise -- making the DACA provisions permanent, the Democrats were willing to give Trump $25 billion (or even as high as $50 billion, by some estimates). Of course, as has been pointed out, Trump himself is the one that shot that down (after agreeing to it) because he was called by Conservative Media, such as Fox News, "Amnesty Don." Trump has no one to blame but himself that his wall isn't already funded.
The problem here is that they wanted the DACA provisions before any money would be spent on the wall. Lucy has already performed this trick. Many times.
Sure, the Democrats have agreed a wall is beneficial in various areas -- even giving funding for some 700 miles of wall during the Obama administration. Agreeing that walls can be helpful in areas where people illegally cross the border makes sense. It doesn't make sense to build wall in the middle of barren, arid land where no one is trying to cross the border -- which is what we'd being doing by building another 1200 or so miles of border wall (which is what Trump has claimed he wants). It's about like me trying to claim that Republicans are hypocrites because they want a wall on the Southern border but not the Northern one -- odd the "double standard" by Republicans.
And yet, if you pay attention, people and drugs come through inconvenient as well as convenient paths. A wall is a force multiplier.
Now, if you want the real truth, neither political party appears that interested in actually solving the issue -- even though both sides bloviate about border security. If we were really serious about fixing the illegal immigration issues, we'd be punishing businesses (and even individuals) that hire illegal aliens -- without jobs here most of these immigrants won't be coming to the US illegally. It doesn't do them any good to come to the US if they can't find work. At the same time, we'd make an enforceable guest worker program. The truth is that businesses (including Trump's, as had made the news recently) depend on that "cheap illegal immigrant" labor to keep their costs down, and won't let their bought and paid for politicians entirely fix it.
I agree both D's and R's want illegal immigration. The country does not, though.
So, no, this has nothing to do with "Trump hate." Rather, it has more to do with the Democrats making compromises three different times, with Republicans and with the "blessing" of the White House, to fund the government -- twice Trump has, after indicating he'd sign the legislation has backed out. The middle time, they made the compromises based on a promise to promote debate on DACA legislation in the Senate, something that still has not happened (largely because Trump refuses to sign any such bill -- despite promises in 2017 that he would sign DACA legislation if Congress passed it).

It's not on the Democrats that Republicans, and in particular Trump, are not negotiating in good faith (pulling out at the last moment), or that Republicans (again, mostly Trump) isn't living up to promises he made. The Democrats already compromised on the current package to get the government open, with the White House signalling Trump would sign it. Why should they have to re-negotiate the deal that was struck now, merely because Trump, after the deal was done, added new requirements?
If they had given anything, Trump would have gone with it. But he knew from past experience that if he didn't get wall now, he would never get it.
 
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rambot

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The country does not, though.
.
Sure they do. The people that hire illegals to work their fields love that they are there. Consumers of the products that those illegals harvest grow or build ALSO want that.
 
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The problem here is that they wanted the DACA provisions before any money would be spent on the wall. Lucy has already performed this trick. Many times.

The provisions for DACA and the wall would have been in the same bill, there is no "Lucy" in that scenario, as since the money would already be available to be spent. No, Trump basically said there would be no deal, at all, for DACA when he started being called "Amnesty Don." It is Trump that is "Lucy" in this scenario; though as you mentioned, he has done it many times.

And yet, if you pay attention, people and drugs come through inconvenient as well as convenient paths. A wall is a force multiplier.

And in places where it makes sense, pretty much everyone (including Democrats) agree with a wall -- they already (even before Trump) agreed, as well as coming out of support for (which are now being used against them, taken out of context), 700 miles of wall/fence. The issue is that there are large sections of land that a wall would be much like the "bridge to nowhere" -- it would be very expensive to build, because there are no roads needed for that type of project, and the area is easy to find/pick up people attempting to cross the border because of the time and issues trying to cross in those areas.

I agree both D's and R's want illegal immigration. The country does not, though.
If they had given anything, Trump would have gone with it. But he knew from past experience that if he didn't get wall now, he would never get it.

I think the actual point, Trump really didn't care about the wall that much. Again, he was offered $25 million (or even as much as $70 million, by some estimates) for the wall -- that would have been authorized in the same bill that gave permanent protections for DACA (which Trump promised he would do without any qualifications -- not that he'd do it in "trade"). Trump had two years with a Republican Congress to try and push it through. Instead, he waited until he knew he was losing the Republican majority in the House, and that he started worrying about his re-election chances, since his previous "signature achievement" of the economy started looking worse -- with the budget deficit rising, trade deficits increasing, and the stock market falling (signs pointing toward recession). He suddenly decided he needed the wall, not because he thinks it is an "emergency" or that it is really needed, but to fulfill a promise that will energize his base to distract from the other issues.

Also, as you point out, Trump isn't supplying any type of plan for that $5 billion -- he's just demanding it for "border security." Perhaps if he actually had some type of plan, one where people could see exactly where the money is going there wouldn't be so much opposition. For example, saying he's going to fix and upgrade the wall in the San Diego/Tijuana area, that he'll extend the wall in a section of Arizona, where lots of people are trying to illegally cross the border, and money to improve specific equipment the border patrol uses.

If Obama had requested $5 billion for "national security", with vague claims about how it was going to be used, would you expect the Republicans to approve that? Why then, do you expect the Democrats to give Trump a blank check that is for the "border?"
 
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Hank77

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"Freedom of movement"? Can you give me the cite in the Constitution for that? ^_^
As early as the Articles of Confederation the Congress recognized freedom of movement (Article 4), though the right was thought to be so fundamental during the drafting of the Constitution as not needing explicit enumeration.[4]
Freedom of movement under United States law - Wikipedia

Do You Have a Right to Travel?
https://www.americanbar.org/content..._RighttoTravel_quoteshandout.authcheckdam.pdf

Chief Justice Melville Fuller, in Williams v. Fears (1900):
... Undoubtedly, the right of locomotion, the right to remove from one place to another according to inclination, is an attribute of personal liberty, and the right, ordinarily, of free transit from or through the territory of any State is a right secured by the Fourteenth Amendment and by other provisions of the Constitution. ..
 
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Hank77

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Hank77

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Correction: DAPL does run through the Standing Rock Rez and the Standing Rock Sioux tribe did not authorize it. In fact, they fought it on their land and at the United Nations Human Rights Counsel.
I'm looking at the map and I don't see what you are saying. It looks to me like the pipeline goes under the river just above the reservation border. That way they didn't have to pay the tribe for access.
 
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