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Trump's got the Pro-Life vote

Discussion in 'General Politics' started by Mountainmanbob, Feb 2, 2020.

  1. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    This may sound like the craziest thing that you have heard in a long time...... but I think that a powerful case can be presented that President Trump and his team might wish to coopt some aspects of the Andrew Yang platform .........
    but only on one condition........

    The numbers up here in Canada are so much smaller that they may be easier to handle and perhaps we Canadians should attempt to do something with this first????

    More information here in post #6 :
    Could a Basic Minimum Income for all Americans decrease abortions?
     
  2. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    The pro life movement has lost my respect by supporting a "leader" (and I use the word loosely) whose lies and misdeeds multiply daily, and who continues to be under criminal investigation in NY, subject to lawsuits in several others, and may be referred to the International Criminal Court in the Hague for war crimes against Iran. I would advise the pro lifers to look closely at the seven deadly sins and see if they don't read like his resume.

    Pro lifers who are willing to throw refugees, immigrants, the poor, the disabled, and many others under the bus to praise a "leader" who has made a callous deduction that if he panders to them they may be useful are not really pro life.
     
  3. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    My point brother Bob was that God being omniscient and omnipresent can make decisions that we will not understand but are perfectly justified. If God ordered these women & children to be killed then He had good reason to do so. Many cultures back in these times had zero morality and lived solely based on greed where the strong took whatever they wanted from the weak. God killed many women & children in the flood because of this very reason.
     
  4. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    Ok I've got you but, (for that very reason? I need a verse to bring that to light. I'm thinking that there were also other reasons?

    Bottom line is that I support a President (whoever he or she is) who is against abortion. I know some will scream, but Trump only recently jumped to the Pro Life side. I don't care if he just made the leap yesterday. There was a time in which I also had no concerns regarding abortion. Years of regret and reading the Word and attendance in Abortion Recovery Groups changed my mind and heart. Have you ever heard the stories told in those groups and seen the tears?
    M-Bob
     
  5. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    No I’m not saying that is the particular reason God chose for them to be killed, I’m just using it as one example of how His decision could be justified.
     
  6. GACfan

    GACfan Well-Known Member Staff Member Trainee Supporter

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    I don't think it actually matters if Trump claims to be pro-life or not. I think as long as he keeps an R beside his name and he speaks Christianese every now and again, then he's safe from judgment and condemnation from his faithful voting base. I think he knows that too. As long as he keeps pandering to his voting base, he could pay off the porn star he slept with while his third mistress wife was home with their newborn son. Oh wait... he's already done that. As long as he keeps pandering to his voting base, he could call the Republicans who don't support him human scum. Oh wait... he's already done that. As long as he keeps pandering to his voting base, he could suggest that the Second Amendment people could act against Hillary Clinton if she got elected instead of him. Oh wait... he's done that too.

    As long as he keeps up his charade that he's pro-life now, he could say something like: "The other thing with the terrorists is you have to take out their families, when you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, don't kid yourself. When they say they don't care about their lives, you have to take out their families" (source). Can't you see how that's pro-life?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Just because God commanded it does not give liberty to the Democratic Party to make it part of their plank.

    Now for a further examination of your misuse of Holy Scriptures, we have a theology section here at CF where you can provide your exegesis of why God judged those nations.
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    1. why are you comparing murder to immigration policy?
    2. The Senate Democrats have called Trump a dictator so why would they leave one dictatorship for another?
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Please site statistics please.
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    YHWH mentions this to Abraham in Genesis 15:

    Genesis 15: NASB

    12Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him. 13God said to Abram, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years. 14“But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions. 15“As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. 16“Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.”

    Of course the previously failed and specious use of Scriptures to defend abortion by a DNC operative is par for the course. I guess we see it everyday.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Why would that surprise you? Limiting murder is still murder.
     
  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Operating from your own Catholic Church Catechism, abortion is murder. I have encountered very few Roman Catholics who support elective abortions.

    Of course and they need pastoral care. They also need to be educated that killing children in the womb is not a 'choice' and not 'women's health' and not healthcare related at all.

    Please provide the survey data. It does not match the Guttmacher data collected for Florida here:

    Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

    It is more 8.0%. And even Guttmacher does not define what the socio-economic issue is.

    But I have to ask. Is poverty a justification to kill an innocent human being in the womb? Your church says no and so does mine and so do the Holy Scriptures.

    I hope your survey defines "social and economic conditions." I ask because do you know of any state which denies the poor CHIP, Medicaid, housing vouchers and EBT cards to women who cannot afford to raise their children? Is Florida devoid of the thousands of Christian charities (including your church's own Catholic Charities) which provide food, shelter, job placement, childcare and other needs after the baby is born? Or is this more about a living wage?

    I really don't have to explain myself according to your red herring fallacy. Anyone who advocates the premeditated termination (murder) of innocent human life has the explaining to do. Perhaps you may want to speak with your priest or local ordinary on this matter.



    I love the way you make this personal and villainize me. You have the explaining to do advocating premediated murder when your own Catholic Church condemns it.

    Respect for Unborn Human Life: The Church's Constant Teaching

    Fact sheet by the USCCB Committee on Pro-Life Activities

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law" (No. 2271).


      • From earliest times, Christians sharply distinguished themselves from surrounding pagan cultures by rejecting abortion and infanticide. The earliest widely used documents of Christian teaching and practice after the New Testament in the 1st and 2nd centuries, the Didache (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) and Letter of Barnabas, condemned both practices, as did early regional and particular Church councils.

      • To be sure, knowledge of human embryology was very limited until recent times. Many Christian thinkers accepted the biological theories of their time, based on the writings of Aristotle (4th century BC) and other philosophers. Aristotle assumed a process was needed over time to turn the matter from a woman's womb into a being that could receive a specifically human form or soul. The active formative power for this process was thought to come entirely from the man – the existence of the human ovum (egg), like so much of basic biology, was unknown.

      • However, such mistaken biological theories never changed the Church's common conviction that abortion is gravely wrong at every stage. At the very least, early abortion was seen as attacking a being with a human destiny, being prepared by God to receive an immortal soul (cf. Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you").

      • In the 5th century AD this rejection of abortion at every stage was affirmed by the great bishop-theologian St. Augustine. He knew of theories about the human soul not being present until some weeks into pregnancy. Because he used the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, he also thought the ancient Israelites had imposed a more severe penalty for accidentally causing a miscarriage if the fetus was "fully formed" (Exodus 21: 22-23), language not found in any known Hebrew version of this passage. But he also held that human knowledge of biology was very limited, and he wisely warned against misusing such theories to risk committing homicide. He added that God has the power to make up all human deficiencies or lack of development in the Resurrection, so we cannot assume that the earliest aborted children will be excluded from enjoying eternal life with God.

      • In the 13th century, St. Thomas Aquinas made extensive use of Aristotle's thought, including his theory that the rational human soul is not present in the first few weeks of pregnancy. But he also rejected abortion as gravely wrong at every stage, observing that it is a sin "against nature" to reject God's gift of a new life.

      • During these centuries, theories derived from Aristotle and others influenced the grading of penalties for abortion in Church law. Some canonical penalties were more severe for a direct abortion after the stage when the human soul was thought to be present. However, abortion at all stages continued to be seen as a grave moral evil.

      • From the 13th to 19th centuries, some theologians speculated about rare and difficult cases where they thought an abortion before "formation" or "ensoulment" might be morally justified. But these theories were discussed and then always rejected, as the Church refined and reaffirmed its understanding of abortion as an intrinsically evil act that can never be morally right.

      • In 1827, with the discovery of the human ovum, the mistaken biology of Aristotle was discredited. Scientists increasingly understood that the union of sperm and egg at conception produces a new living being that is distinct from both mother and father. Modern genetics demonstrated that this individual is, at the outset, distinctively human, with the inherent and active potential to mature into a human fetus, infant, child and adult. From 1869 onward the obsolete distinction between the "ensouled" and "unensouled" fetus was permanently removed from canon law on abortion.

      • Secular laws against abortion were being reformed at the same time and in the same way, based on secular medical experts' realization that "no other doctrine appears to be consonant with reason or physiology but that which admits the embryo to possess vitality from the very moment of conception" (American Medical Association, Report on Criminal Abortion, 1871).

      • Thus modern science has not changed the Church's constant teaching against abortion, but has underscored how important and reasonable it is, by confirming that the life of each individual of the human species begins with the earliest embryo.
      • Given the scientific fact that a human life begins at conception, the only moral norm needed to understand the Church's opposition to abortion is the principle that each and every human life has inherent dignity, and thus must be treated with the respect due to a human person. This is the foundation for the Church's social doctrine, including its teachings on war, the use of capital punishment, euthanasia, health care, poverty and immigration. Conversely, to claim that some live human beings do not deserve respect or should not be treated as "persons" (based on changeable factors such as age, condition, location, or lack of mental or physical abilities) is to deny the very idea of inherent human rights. Such a claim undermines respect for the lives of many vulnerable people before and after birth.
    Source: Respect for Unborn Human Life: The Church's Constant Teaching
     
  13. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

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    Cause both are sinful.
    Lost me on that one.
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    So is lust.
     
  15. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

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    And?
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Please excuse me for not missing your sidestep here. What does immigration policy have to do with murder? Are you truly equating the two?
     
  17. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

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    They are both sin. Have you read the book of James?
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Didn't see James speak of national borders and immigration policy. I did see he mentions murder.
     
  19. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    God uses Walls to bring Him glory
    In Old Testament times the city walls represented not only the strength of the people within that city, but also the strength of the God they served.
     
  20. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

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    Maybe you don't know the importance of loving people.
     
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