Trump walks out of shutdown meeting with top Democrats

[Ringo84]

You seem upset.
Calm down.
And I'm far from coming up short on arguments.
You just don't agree nor understand the necessity of the wall.
The wall is obviously much needed.

Then you should have no problem providing proof that backs up these claims.
Ringo

 

[EpiscipalMe]

You seem upset.
Calm down.
And I'm far from coming up short on arguments.
You just don't agree nor understand the necessity of the wall.
The wall is obviously much needed.

Allow me summarize how these conversations have gone on this and multiple other threads.

Wall supporter (WS):
We need a wall to stop the illegals from coming in with their crime and their drugs!

Wall opponent (WO):
Provides data showing:
Most illegal immigrants overstay visas - wall won’t help
Illegal immigrants commit less violent crime than citizens
Most drugs come in through legal points of entry

WS:
But there is a crisis!

WO:
Shows data that illegal border crossing having been dropping dramatically since Bush 43 was president.

WS:
But experts want the wall!

WO:
Shows data to the contrary. And, by the way, the longer this goes on, the more support for the wall dwindles.

WO:
Democrats could have had DACA!

WS:
Shows evidence that Democrats were for the wall-DACA trade. Trump opposed it as did Senate Republicans.

WS:
But Democrats are just opposing this because Trump is president!

WO:
Points out that Democrats were for border barriers when they were part of a comprehensive plan, most recently in 2013. Of note, that plan was opposed by Republicans which is why it isn’t law now.

WS:
But... (lacking any further arguments the wall supporter goes back to the beginning.

If you want evidence for the claims made by the wall opponent in this short script, check this and other threads. They have all been backed up with evidence.

 

[rjs330]

Or, the wall is just a stupid idea.

If Obama had demanded a wall, would you be as against it?

 

[Ringo84]

If Obama had demanded a wall, would you be as against it?

I can't speak for Episcipal, but I'll answer your question: yes.

A wall is unnecessary and won't solve the immigration problem.
Ringo

 

[rjs330]

I can't speak for Episcipal, but I'll answer your question: yes.

A wall is unnecessary and won't solve the immigration problem.
Ringo

How about we look at a place where a wall had been put up shall we? El Paso had a wall and one that is not even as substantial as the one we want . And it did wonders for the place. I think speculation and opinion are fine. But here are some actual facts on how it will work.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/01/13/we-already-have-a-border-wall-and-it-works/amp/

 

[Ringo84]

How about we look at a place where a wall had been put up shall we? El Paso had a wall and one that is not even as substantial as the one we want . And it did wonders for the place. I think speculation and opinion are fine. But here are some actual facts on how it will work.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/01/13/we-already-have-a-border-wall-and-it-works/amp/

Federal data show a far-less imposing wall than the one Trump envisions — a two-story corrugated metal fence first erected under the Bush administration — already has dramatically curtailed both illegal border crossings and crime in Texas’ sixth-largest city, which borders the high-crime Mexican city of Juarez.

Doesn't this undermine your argument? If there's already a wall there, and it's working fine, what use is there for "steel slats"?
Ringo

 

[rjs330]

Doesn't this undermine your argument? If there's already a wall there, and it's working fine, what use is there for "steel slats"?
Ringo

Oh brother so now your argument is the wall works, I just don't like the kind of wall we are putting up?

Here is another link to show the effectiveness of the wall.
Walls Work

 

[Ringo84]

Oh brother so now your argument is the wall works, I just don't like the kind of wall we are putting up?

Here is another link to show the effectiveness of the wall.
Walls Work

Don't recall saying that "walls don't work". I said that the wall Donny wants is unnecessary, and your own source confirms that.

Maybe you should stick to arguing with what I actually said and not the Ringo84 straw man you set up.
Ringo

 

[rjs330]

Don't recall saying that "walls don't work". I said that the wall Donny wants is unnecessary, and your own source confirms that.

Maybe you should stick to arguing with what I actually said and not the Ringo84 straw man you set up.
Ringo

Really? Post 84 you said the wall was "unnecessary". Now we see an actual city where we can say the wall WAS necessary because of what it did. The wall won't solve ALL the illegal immigration problems like overstayed visas, but it IS necessary to stop illegal border crossings and it IS necessary to reduce crime and problems on the southern border. It IS also necessary to reduce the financial impact on all of us as it reduces the illegal immigration.

Can a Border Wall Pay for Itself?

 

[Ringo84]

Really? Post 84 you said the wall was "unnecessary". Now we see an actual city where we can say the wall WAS necessary because of what it did.

I said that Donny's wall was unnecessary, and it is. The source you posted confirmed that because there is already a wall in El Paso that is curbing illegal immigration. This was a pretty massive own goal on your part.

The wall won't solve ALL the illegal immigration problems like overstayed visas, but it IS necessary to stop illegal border crossings

Which have been dropping since 2000 and do not currently constitute the problem Donny claims:
There Is No Border Crisis

Also:
Trump Says Border Wall Will Stop Drugs. Here’s What a DEA Intel Report Says.

And:
Why the Wall Won't Work
Ringo

 

[EpiscipalMe]

If Obama had demanded a wall, would you be as against it?

How about we look at a place where a wall had been put up shall we? El Paso had a wall and one that is not even as substantial as the one we want . And it did wonders for the place. I think speculation and opinion are fine. But here are some actual facts on how it will work.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/01/13/we-already-have-a-border-wall-and-it-works/amp/

As I have said before and as I have demonstrated Dems have supported, I am fine with border barriers that are well thought out and part of an overall plan. The Trump wall is neither of these.

However, the El Paso wall was. In addition to the pedestrian fence (not Trump style wall), there were changes in deployment of people and technology.
Did El Paso fencing make all the difference there?

To your point about playing politics, Republicans voted against border security in 2013 when Obama was president:
Immigration bill summary
All 32 no votes in the Senate were from Republicans and the Republican led House never brought it for a vote.

 

[dgiharris]

Oh brother so now your argument is the wall works, I just don't like the kind of wall we are putting up?

Here is another link to show the effectiveness of the wall.
Walls Work

This line of argument is disingenuous and borderline lying.

For the record, Democrats have long supported walls in areas that make sense. Democrats have supported walls that are part of a comprehensive security package...

So please don't make it sound like Democrats are against all walls because that is not true and is just a blatant lie.

Democrats are against the 2000 mile wall Trump proposes...

There is a difference

 

[rjs330]

I said that Donny's wall was unnecessary, and it is. The source you posted confirmed that because there is already a wall in El Paso that is curbing illegal immigration. This was a pretty massive own goal on your part.



Which have been dropping since 2000 and do not currently constitute the problem Donny claims:
There Is No Border Crisis

Also:
Trump Says Border Wall Will Stop Drugs. Here’s What a DEA Intel Report Says.

And:
Why the Wall Won't Work
Ringo

So Donny's wall is unnecessary. Are you for a wall or not? If so then we can have a discussion on the type of wall that will work. I may even agree with you on the type of wall we need. But first we have to agree on the point that a wall will work.

So please answer the question. Are you for a wall or not?

 

[Ringo84]

So Donny's wall is unnecessary. Are you for a wall or not? If so then we can have a discussion on the type of wall that will work. I may even agree with you on the type of wall we need. But first we have to agree on the point that a wall will work.

So please answer the question. Are you for a wall or not?

No. Isn't it obvious? I already posted the evidence that Donny's wall was unnecessary.
Ringo

 

[rjs330]

As I have said before and as I have demonstrated Dems have supported, I am fine with border barriers that are well thought out and part of an overall plan. The Trump wall is neither of these.

However, the El Paso wall was. In addition to the pedestrian fence (not Trump style wall), there were changes in deployment of people and technology.
Did El Paso fencing make all the difference there?

To your point about playing politics, Republicans voted against border security in 2013 when Obama was president:
Immigration bill summary
All 32 no votes in the Senate were from Republicans and the Republican led House never brought it for a vote.

This just shows your dislike of Trump. Walls work. It's been shown to work. So are you for a wall or not. This wall looks good to me. And Trump has never said it's the only answer . It's part of a comprehensive plan that you seem to support. The wall is just a part. We can argue about the type of wall we need.

Are you for a wall or not?

 

[rjs330]

No. Isn't it obvious? I already posted the evidence that Donny's wall was unnecessary.
Ringo

Do walls work or not?

 

[Ringo84]

Do walls work or not?

Completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, since the argument is not over the effectiveness of walls, but whether this wall is necessary or not. It's not, as I've already shown.
Ringo

 

[EpiscipalMe]

This just shows your dislike of Trump. Walls work. It's been shown to work. So are you for a wall or not. This wall looks good to me. And Trump has never said it's the only answer . It's part of a comprehensive plan that you seem to support. The wall is just a part. We can argue about the type of wall we need.

Are you for a wall or not?

This wall, that Trump is demanding money for, is not part of a comprehensive plan. A 30 foot wall from sea to sea is a stupid idea.

Open the government, take the time to come up with an actual border security plan (which may include physical barriers of some sort), and pass that.

Trump may not have said "I want a wall and nothing else" but neither has he proposed a real plan. In addition, he has made it quite clear that he will sign off on a bill that includes a wall even if it includes nothing else.

I do dislike Trump, but the extensive evidence I have pointed to does not support a 30 foot monument to Trump's ego being a good use of money at this time. This has all been extensively documented in earlier posts.

And, walls may work in some situations. The question is, is it the best use of resources in this situation.

Finally, I am vehemently opposed to giving in to Trump's temper tantrum. Giving him his wall now will make no significant dent in illegal immigration, drug trafficking, etc. However, you need to treat Trump like a child at this point - giving in to his demands will just encourage him to do it again when he gets some other crazy idea in his head.

 

[Ringo84]

If there were good arguments in favor of Donny's "steel slats" wall, they'd have been made.

Instead, someone's trying to pick a fight over whether walls - in general - work despite evidence presented that the wall Donny has proposed is not necessary, effective, or even wanted by border agents. That really tells me everything I need to know.
Ringo

 

[rjs330]

Completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, since the argument is not over the effectiveness of walls, but whether this wall is necessary or not. It's not, as I've already shown.
Ringo

It's irrelevant if the wall works? That's funny no matter who you are. Do walls work or not? If they don't then it is irrelevant what kind of wall it is. If they do work then we can have a discussion on the best wall. So please answer yes or no. Do walls work or not?