Trump Told Attorney to Lie to Congress on Moscow Tower Project

[loveofourlord]

One thing, I don't think a sitting president can be arrested, so the whole wait for charges is a bit silly, and impeachment doesn't require him doing anything ilegal in theory.

 

[hedrick]

One thing, I don't think a sitting president can be arrested, so the whole wait for charges is a bit silly, and impeachment doesn't require him doing anything ilegal in theory.

I don't think it's wait for charges. It's wait for Mueller's report. If there really is documentation for this, Mueller almost certainly has it.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

 

[zephcom]

I don't think it's wait for charges. It's wait for Mueller's report. If there really is documentation for this, Mueller almost certainly has it.

Waiting for Mueller's report could well be a futile gesture. There is no assurance that when it is written that it will be released or if it is release that it won't have significant redactions.

This is, remember, about the president and much of what happens with a president is legitimately classified. Remember that the Kennedy Assassination report was given a fifty year blackout and even after fifty years some parts still were not released.

Impeachment need not wait for Mueller. Saving the nation just might be more important than giving Mueller time to finish.

 

[hedrick]

Waiting for Mueller's report could well be a futile gesture. There is no assurance that when it is written that it will be released or if it is release that it won't have significant redactions.

This is, remember, about the president and much of what happens with a president is legitimately classified. Remember that the Kennedy Assassination report was given a fifty year blackout and even after fifty years some parts still were not released.

Impeachment need not wait for Mueller. Saving the nation just might be more important than giving Mueller time to finish.

Of course if there's reason to think that Mueller has evidence like this and isn't releasing it, the House should conduct its own investigation. But I think that's unlikely. If Mueller were just starting, you could also argue that we shouldn't wait. But it seems like he's close enough to being finished that it probably makes sense to see what he has to say.

 

[ml5363]

FWIW, I do not think Republicans are actually self aware or conscious of the fact that they don't want to be in charge.

You are right, they needed to be in charge to appoint the Supreme Court Justices/jokes but other than that, they don't want to be in power.

The basic problem with the Republican party is that they view themselves as America. Whatever they believe, they think that it is the best for America and Conversely, they view Democrats as "anti-America". You will often hear Republicans say stuff like "Well, if it makes liberals mad, then it must be good!"

So then everything is seen as black and white or rather Red and Blue. If a Democrat proposes something than Republicans will oppose it no matter what. You will hear them throw the term "socialist" around as if Socialism is a bad thing. If you look at our country, it is a mix of Capitalism and Socialism and that is optimal. You'd need only look at history during the age of Robber Barons and Monopolies etc to know that a 100% pure Capitalistic society would be very very bad.

In any event, both parties need to understand that neither party is the whole of America. We are all Americans and we should all want what is best for the nation and we should all realize that no one knows everything...

That's the thing, the left doesn't want capitalism and socialism mix...it wants more socialism ...that's our prob folks don't want it think in grey always black or white..

 

[ml5363]

You are right of course, but Putin, Trump and Foxnews have invested an enormous amount of time, money, energy and effort into dividing our nation in every conceivable way. The way that Trump and Foxnews treat the Democratic party is simply shameful at this point. Meanwhile 800,000 Americans are forced to go without a paycheck or work without pay while Trump holds them hostage over a wall that the he promised that Mexico would pay for. It's just shameful.

It would be better to impeach President Pinocchio rather than to leave him in power. I shudder to think about how much damage Trump could do to our nation over the next two years. If he's willing to collude with Russia by giving them polling data to help him get elected, and obstruct justice by firing someone like Jeff Sessions simply for showing some ethics and recusing himself from the investigation, is there anything that Trump won't do to hang onto power?

If Trump isn't impeached soon, the whole nation will suffer.

Just for kicks, let's pretend that the left didn't win majority in house. Nor was there a shutdown...and he just passed hiss bill for funding....how would that be bad, other than of course more debt possibly? Please think before speaking, bit just a knee jerk reaction

 

[zephcom]

Just for kicks, let's pretend that the left didn't win majority in house. Nor was there a shutdown...and he just passed hiss bill for funding....how would that be bad, other than of course more debt possibly? Please think before speaking, bit just a knee jerk reaction

And, of course, more debt is not an issue with Republicans as long as it is them doing the spending. But you are right, compared to the trillion-five they gave away to the rich, it pales.

It would be bad because America would be continuing a path into White Supremacy and isolation from the rest of the world. That is the best scenario. The worst scenario is that there would be no one available to stop Trump from turning over leadership of the world to his good friend and financial backer in return for getting to put a hotel in Moscow.

 

[SummerMadness]

Just for kicks, let's pretend that the left didn't win majority in house. Nor was there a shutdown...and he just passed hiss bill for funding....how would that be bad, other than of course more debt possibly? Please think before speaking, bit just a knee jerk reaction

Funny how when it's for this racist wall, debt is not a problem, but it's a huge issue if it comes to people receiving help, like healthcare and unemployment benefits.

 

[zephcom]

Of course if there's reason to think that Mueller has evidence like this and isn't releasing it, the House should conduct its own investigation. But I think that's unlikely. If Mueller were just starting, you could also argue that we shouldn't wait. But it seems like he's close enough to being finished that it probably makes sense to see what he has to say.

From a strategy position, it would make sense for Democrats to use The House investigative ability to pound on him for the next two years. He would more damaged than even Hilary Clinton was by that time.

But Clinton is stable mentally. He isn't. Pounding on him for two more years could push him even further from reality than he already is. But waiting six months for Mueller just compounds the problem we have now and doesn't allow enough time to make it practical to even start impeachment.

There just isn't any 'right' answer.

And then there is the devil in my mind which draws up things that an insane person with the resources of the entire American government at his disposal could do. The last one that flitted through my mind was what if he decided to use the Cersei solution for ridding oneself of one's enemies. A State of the Union speech would be perfect for that.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It would appear the buzzfeed report is wrong. Just got the alert from the CNN app on my phone that Mueller's office is disputing the BuzzFeed claim.

It appears this was actually a case of "Fake News".

 

[Michael]

Just for kicks, let's pretend that the left didn't win majority in house. Nor was there a shutdown...and he just passed hiss bill for funding....how would that be bad, other than of course more debt possibly? Please think before speaking, bit just a knee jerk reaction

Hypothetically speaking, if Trump was a completely different person, and he acted rationally instead of like a rich spoiled bully, sure I'd be a lot happier with him. So what?

The fact of the matter is that the Democrats won a *historic* victory in the house, and Trump blatantly and obviously lied when he repeatedly claimed that Mexico would pay for his stupid wall. Rather than to admit to his error, and work rationally with the new house in term of funding, he's now holding 800,000 Americans hostage to cover up his lies. He also passed a *huge* tax break for the wealthiest of Americans while driving up the national debt and the budget deficit to historic levels too. As it stands, I think Trump is a complete disaster for this nation and even more of a disaster for Republicans in particular.

I'm a middle of the road Democrat. I voted for Reagan and I voted for our "Govenator" here in California too so I'm willing to see both sides of political spectrum and I'm closer to the middle than I am to one side or the other. Reagan however must be turning over in his grave to watch the Republican party collude with the "evil empire" to sway a US election. That is flat out treason IMO and I'm sure that Reagan would be appalled by what's going on now. If this trend continues, foreign governments will end up having a massive influence on all future US elections, particularly after they watched Trump do everything he could to praise Russia for their efforts, and make excuses for their intervention, rather than condemn them vehemently for their interference.

I'll undoubtedly have to wait to see what Mueller comes up with before Republicans start supporting Trump's impeachment, but just the fact that his campaign helped Russia by giving them internal polling data to help Russia better "market" Trump on social media during his campaign is in fact treason in my book. His firing of James Comey for investigating a now convicted felon, and particularly his firing of Jeff Session simply for recusing himself from the investigation are *blatant* acts of obstruction of justice too. I have no great sympathy for Trump, even if the Buzzfeed story turns out to be mostly false. Either way, there's plenty of other evidence of both his collusion with Russia and his blatant attempts at obstruction of justice for me to be in favor of his impeachment right now.

I have a feeling that Mueller is going to file more charges against Trump family members before this investigation is over, and his report is going to blow the lid off of the outrageous corruption that is going on within this administrator. He's already proved that four of Trumps closest campaign organizers were felons, so I will not be surprised to find out that Trump himself was directly involved in all of this illegal nonsense.

Keep in mind that Mueller raided Trump's lawyers offices, and he has *way* more information about what went down than what has been released to the public thus far. Mueller has gone far out of his way to redact anything that might tip his hand about the rest of his investigation, his office has been responsible for no leaks thus far, and he's handed off anything that wasn't directly related to Russian collusion to other investigators. Mueller even went so far as to throw a wet blanket on the Buzzfeed story yesterday, so he's been *more than fair* and completely professional in terms of his investigation of Trump, unlike the witch hunt that we saw with Clinton which started off as an investigation of a real estate deal and ended up being focused on is personal sex life.

The outcome of Mueller's investigation along with the outcome of a real investigation from the new house will determine whether Trump is impeached or not, but nothing will save the Republican party from the absolute slaughter they will experience in 2020 due to their complete ineptitude and their unconditional support of Trump, even after Trump's campaign colluded with the Russians, and even after his blatant attempts at obstruction of justice. The voters will have the final word on all of this nonsense in two years, and it won't be pretty for the Republican party. They may *never* recover at the rate their going.

The Republicans in the 70's were smart enough to cut their losses with Nixon, but the Republicans today seem hell bent on going down with the ship this time around. This is like the watching the sinking of the Titanic in terms of it's net effect on the Republican party. I just hope Trump doesn't destroy the whole nation before he's finally kicked out of office.

 

[ml5363]

Hypothetically speaking, if Trump was a completely different person, and he acted rationally instead of like a rich spoiled bully, sure I'd be a lot happier with him. So what?

The fact of the matter is that the Democrats won a *historic* victory in the house, and Trump blatantly and obviously lied when he repeatedly claimed that Mexico would pay for his stupid wall. Rather than to admit to his error, and work rationally with the new house in term of funding, he's now holding 800,000 Americans hostage to cover up his lies. He also passed a *huge* tax break for the wealthiest of Americans while driving up the national debt and the budget deficit to historic levels too. As it stands, I think Trump is a complete disaster for this nation and even more of a disaster for Republicans in particular.

I'm a middle of the road Democrat. I voted for Reagan and I voted for our "Govenator" here in California too so I'm willing to see both sides of political spectrum and I'm closer to the middle than I am to one side or the other. Reagan however must be turning over in his grave to watch the Republican party collude with the "evil empire" to sway a US election. That is flat out treason IMO and I'm sure that Reagan would be appalled by what's going on now. If this trend continues, foreign governments will end up having a massive influence on all future US elections, particularly after they watched Trump do everything he could to praise Russia for their efforts, and make excuses for their intervention, rather than condemn them vehemently for their interference.

I'll undoubtedly have to wait to see what Mueller comes up with before Republicans start supporting Trump's impeachment, but just the fact that his campaign helped Russia by giving them internal polling data to help Russia better "market" Trump on social media during his campaign is in fact treason in my book. His firing of James Comey for investigating a now convicted felon, and particularly his firing of Jeff Session simply for recusing himself from the investigation are *blatant* acts of obstruction of justice too. I have no great sympathy for Trump, even if the Buzzfeed story turns out to be mostly false. Either way, there's plenty of other evidence of both his collusion with Russia and his blatant attempts at obstruction of justice for me to be in favor of his impeachment right now.

I have a feeling that Mueller is going to file more charges against Trump family members before this investigation is over, and his report is going to blow the lid off of the outrageous corruption that is going on within this administrator. He's already proved that four of Trumps closest campaign organizers were felons, so I will not be surprised to find out that Trump himself was directly involved in all of this illegal nonsense.

Keep in mind that Mueller raided Trump's lawyers offices, and he has *way* more information about what went down than what has been released to the public thus far. Mueller has gone far out of his way to redact anything that might tip his hand about the rest of his investigation, his office has been responsible for no leaks thus far, and he's handed off anything that wasn't directly related to Russian collusion to other investigators. Mueller even went so far as to throw a wet blanket on the Buzzfeed story yesterday, so he's been *more than fair* and completely professional in terms of his investigation of Trump, unlike the witch hunt that we saw with Clinton which started off as an investigation of a real estate deal and ended up being focused on is personal sex life.

The outcome of Mueller's investigation along with the outcome of a real investigation from the new house will determine whether Trump is impeached or not, but nothing will save the Republican party from the absolute slaughter they will experience in 2020 due to their complete ineptitude and their unconditional support of Trump, even after Trump's campaign colluded with the Russians, and even after his blatant attempts at obstruction of justice. The voters will have the final word on all of this nonsense in two years, and it won't be pretty for the Republican party. They may *never* recover at the rate their going.

The Republicans in the 70's were smart enough to cut their losses with Nixon, but the Republicans today seem hell bent on going down with the ship this time around. This is like the watching the sinking of the Titanic in terms of it's net effect on the Republican party. I just hope Trump doesn't destroy the whole nation before he's finally kicked out of office.

I am very far from Rich...but his tax cuts helped me get a little more m oney...I didn't have to report expenses this year for work and will get a lot more back than last year..
My family is considered in poverty..

I wouldn't count your chickens too far in advance...I am not sure will get the landslide victory people think I. 2020..nor do I think it will be an easy loss...he has done a lot in 2 years...weather or not people see that thru their hatred is another

 

[SimplyMe]

I am very far from Rich...but his tax cuts helped me get a little more m oney...I didn't have to report expenses this year for work and will get a lot more back than last year..
My family is considered in poverty..

I wouldn't count your chickens too far in advance...I am not sure will get the landslide victory people think I. 2020..nor do I think it will be an easy loss...he has done a lot in 2 years...weather or not people see that thru their hatred is another

I think it is way too early to know what the elections will be like. For starters, we'll see which of the many Democrats actually win the nomination. Beyond that, we'll see what the economy is like in two years -- many experts were already expecting a recession, and the government shutdown is unlikely to help the economy. It's also worth noting that, in the midterm elections, the Democrats had 10 million more votes than the Republicans -- which would be a Democratic victory in the Electoral College if they can hold those results in the next Presidential Election (and that was with a good economy).

As a good example, at the end of the First Gulf War, which was at a similar point (Feb 28, 1991) to go before the Election, Pres. Bush was seen to be practically unbeatable -- particularly since the Democrats seemed not to have a clear front runner that would be a strong opponent. Yet we all know Clinton won in 1992.

A lot can change in two years.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I am very far from Rich...but his tax cuts helped me get a little more m oney...I didn't have to report expenses this year for work and will get a lot more back than last year..
My family is considered in poverty..

I wouldn't count your chickens too far in advance...I am not sure will get the landslide victory people think I. 2020..nor do I think it will be an easy loss...he has done a lot in 2 years...weather or not people see that thru their hatred is another

If you're an employee, you don't even have that option this year - they did away with the deduction for unreimbursed employee expenses. If you're self-employed and/or somehow set up as a contractor, you can still take those deductions, which will get you more money back.

 

[KCfromNC]

That's the thing, the left doesn't want capitalism and socialism mix...it wants more socialism

Citation needed.

 

[ml5363]

If you're an employee, you don't even have that option this year - they did away with the deduction for unreimbursed employee expenses. If you're self-employed and/or somehow set up as a contractor, you can still take those deductions, which will get you more money back.

One company I work for, I am self employed, however I could not find a place where to put in my expenses

 

[iluvatar5150]

One company I work for, I am self employed, however I could not find a place where to put in my expenses

You might want to talk to a tax professional or at least somebody more familiar with the software you're using. If you're really self-employed (they send you a 1099) and you didn't take any deductions, you could be leaving thousands of dollars on the table.

 

[ml5363]

You might want to talk to a tax professional or at least somebody more familiar with the software you're using. If you're really self-employed (they send you a 1099) and you didn't take any deductions, you could be leaving thousands of dollars on the table.

My tax liability isn't that great anyway...

 

[dgiharris]

I don't know what more "proof" I need other than the fact the campaign provided polling data to a foreign government (the Russians) while the Russians were heavily engaged in trying to affect the outcome of a US election through Facebook, twitter, and social media. That's treason IMO..

You can't hold the candidate responsible for everything that happens during a campaign run by a hundreds of people unless you are talking about an action you can PROVE that he SPECIFICALLY directed/ordered someone to do.

If I needed more, there's the fact that Trump did his best to *undermine* US intelligence while protecting Putin at every turn. A President should have been*outraged* at the Russians for what they did, not going out of his way to make excuses, and downplaying the value of US intelligence on that matter.

The President has the discretion to treat foreign powers as he sees fit in what he believes is what is best for America. He may have some genius level strategy for dealing with Russia that the rest of us are not privy to.

When you say "the President should have been outraged"... that is a matter of your personal opinion and your personal opinion does not trump the President's personal opinion regarding matters of National Security.

Yes, for the record I 100% agree with you, but at the end of the day, we have to trust the President to do his job in the manner that he thinks is best for the nation. So we don't get to impeach him on this item because it is his prerogative on how we as a nation deal with foreign powers.

Then there's his request of a "pledge of allegiance" to Trump personally which he demanded of James Comey (a Republican I might add). When Comey made it clear he was obligated to uphold the law and protect the constitution, not Trump personally, Trump fired him..

This is a he said vs he said with no smoking gun proof.

For the record I 100% believe Comey's version of events, but again, without iron clad smoking gun proof we have to side with the President. On another note, this is a gray area because the President is the head of the Executive Branch and it is his prerogative to direct his office as he sees fit.

Time does not permit me to do a further point by point refutation for all of your reasons but they can all be summed up as a combination of "no smoking gun proof" or the President's prerogative.

I do not mean to sound condescending, but I do not think you appreciate what the Powers of the Office of the President allow nor the discretion those Powers give the President. In short, if we elect someone incompetent and that person goes on to make incompetent decisions then the powers are such that they protect that person to an extraordinary degree because the job requires that said person have the latitude and ability to make decisions based on their best judgement. You can't run the Office of the Presidency by polling and committee. There are always going to be differences of opinion of what should and should not happen. We can't let unpopular decisions be the basis of whether or not we impeach a President.

And again, I say this as someone who really really hates Trump.

I believe you do not fully understand the implications of impeaching Trump on the basis of your arguments. If we allowed for that, you open the door for all future Presidents to be undermined.

Again, if we have smoking gun irrefutable proof then by all means, remove him from office. but the fact is we don't. We have enough proof to remove any normal official from office, but that is not the standard or burden of proof we can use for removing the President. We need to meet an extraordinary burden of proof...