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Trump ties with Obama as most admired man.

Discussion in 'General Politics' started by Jermayn, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    I'm pretty sure I know why checkable sources never come along with those accusations. So do most other people, I think.
     
  2. tulc

    tulc loves "SO'S YER MOM!! posts!

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    Multiple links?

    Multiple links?

    Multiple links?

    Actually, this is a pretty good example of why "Hitchens's Razor" is such a valuable tool:
    Hitchens's razor - Wikipedia
    tulc(will be looking forward to seeing those links) :wave:
     
  3. charity1

    charity1 Member

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    i love Trump and honestly cannot figure out why he is hated by those who follow or claim to follow Jesus (no sure you are in that group?). He has done many things to uphold the rights of Christians the Left want to take away. No, they won't say they are doing that, but...
     
  4. tulc

    tulc loves "SO'S YER MOM!! posts!

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    ...but you still feel it's okay to make the claim even if you don't have any sort of proof for it? :scratch:
    tulc(is just wondering) :wave:
     
  5. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Things like "don't steal", "don't covet your neighbor's wife" (or worse), "don't lie?"

    He has pretty much thumbed his nose at Christians his entire life. Donald Trump's personal life has been everything that a Christian would reject. On the other hand, the left generally wants everyone to leave everyone else alone to do what they see as right. The ACLU, for example, has intervened in a large number of cases to stop public schools from interfering with a student's right to worship as he or she sees right. They've forced schools to let kids bring Bibles into public classrooms, pray whenever it doesn't disrupt classrooms, and even to wear religious articles.

    Trump has done none of these things. Are you familiar with school First Amendment issues?

    And I get that Trump will appoint right-wing judges, so a lot of cultural Christians will ignore his behavior. But what about the rest of us, who actually believe?
     
  6. Jermayn

    Jermayn Active Member

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    Hilary Clinton at the sixth annual Women in the World Summit in New York City, speaking on reproductive rights, which we all know translates to abortion.

    "Laws have to be backed up with resources and political will. And deep-seated cultural codes, religious beliefs and structural biases have to be changed (Clinton, 2015)".


    Barack Obama at a campaign rally in San Francisco in 2008, speaking on small town voters in Pennsylvania. Hmm, I wonder what religion belief small town Pennsylvania voters have? Care to take a guess?

    "And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations (Obama, 2008).


    Bernie Sanders at Russell Vought's confirmation hearing for deputy director of the Office of Management and Budget (Trump Nominee). Mr. Vought is a graduate of Wheaton College, a Christian College, and had written an article on the conservative website "The Resurgent" in regards to the Muslim faith. In that article, Mr. Vought stated the following:

    "Muslims do not simply have a deficient theology. They do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ his Son, and they stand condemned (Vought, 2015)".

    Bernie Sanders made the following statements in response to the article.

    "In my view, the statement made by Mr. Vought is indefensible, it is hateful, it is Islamophobic, and it is an insult to over a billion Muslims throughout the world. This country, since its inception, has struggled, sometimes with great pain, to overcome discrimination of all forms … we must not go backwards (Sanders, 2016)".

    "I don’t know how many Muslims there are in America, I really don’t know, probably a couple million. Are you suggesting that all of those people stand condemned? What about Jews? Do they stand condemned too? (Sanders, 2016)".

    "I understand that you are a Christian. But this country is made up of people who are not just—I understand that Christianity is the majority religion. But there are other people who have different religions in this country and around the world. In your judgment, do you think that people who are not Christians are going to be condemned? (Sanders, 2016)".

    "They do not know God because they rejected Jesus Christ the son, and they stand condemned,’ do you think that’s respectful of other religions? (Sanders, 2016)".

    "I would simply say, Mr. Chairman, that this nominee is really not someone who is what this country is supposed to be about. I will vote no (Sanders, 2016)".

    Wow, good ol' Bernie left us with heaps of citations to prove his disdain for Christians.

    There's plenty more where this came from. Have fun trying to spin all that into something even remotely defensible.





    References:
    Clinton, H. (2015) Hillary Clinton: 'Religious Beliefs ... Have to Be Changed' About Abortion'. Retrived from: Hillary Clinton: 'Religious Beliefs ... Have to Be Changed' About Abortion

    Obama, B. (2008) Obama revives his ‘cling to guns or religion’ analysis — for Donald Trump supporters. Retrived from: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ng-to-guns-or-religion-idea-for-donald-trump/

    Sanders, B. (2016) Bernie Sanders's Religious Test for Christians in Public Office. Retrieved from: Bernie Sanders's Religious Test for Christians in Public Office

    Vought, R. (2015) Bernie Sanders's Religious Test for Christians in Public Office. Retrieved from: Bernie Sanders's Religious Test for Christians in Public Office
     
  7. Jermayn

    Jermayn Active Member

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    Sorry, double post.
     
  8. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It would also indicate that "no one" was more than twice as popular as either.
     
  9. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When you read the full quote you can clearly see, As it turns out, he was spot on correct in that assessment. (from the same article you posted)
    "the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter.. (Obama)"

    later, "Trump's campaign slogan.. is a message tailor-made for those who believe that booting 11 million undocumented immigrants out of the country and surveilling Muslims wholesale will resolve their economic woes and keep their families safe."

    It's the same message we see posted time and again in every "gun thread" on this forum.
    Trump exploited that very bitterness and frustration to his own advantage.

    (again same article a more recent quote from Obama)
    "I do think that when you combine that demographic change with all the economic stresses that people have been going through because of the financial crisis, because of technology, because of globalization, the fact that wages and incomes have been flatlining for some time, and that particularly blue-collar men have had a lot of trouble in this new economy, where they are no longer getting the same bargain that they got when they were going to a factory and able to support their families on a single paycheck.
    You combine those things, and it means that there is going to be potential anger, frustration, fear. Some of it justified, but just misdirected. I think somebody like Mr. Trump is taking advantage of that. That's what he's exploiting during the course of his campaign."


    Once again, Obama was spot on correct.
    Those who cling to guns and religion voted overwhelmingly for Trump in 2016.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
  10. Jermayn

    Jermayn Active Member

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    I disagree with him being correct. We, as Christians, don't place our faith in Jesus because we are bitter at some situation we've found ourselves in. I know people who have never faced financial hardship in their lives and they still cling to Jesus and own guns. The economy and job market are coming back to life, and the government still hasn't, nor ever will, replace Jesus in our lives.
     
  11. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're entitled to your opinion.
    That twists what Obama said. He said people are bitter at government because of government's past failings. They will then cling to the things in which they trust, find solace and security. That is true. That is why many distrust government. It's failed often. That was the question Obama was answering, Why do some distrust government and vote against their own interests?
    Those were not the ones being addressed in Obama's comment.

    The stock market has continued to do well despite Trump. The types of jobs that were being discussed by Obama at that fund-raiser have not done so well.
    Well paying, blue-collar, manufacturing jobs are still struggling to recover, if it all.
    The comment was not about replacing one (government) for the other (religion) or vise-versa, but Trump and evangelicals have sure exploited that to Trump's advantage.

    Being a Christian is not about who one votes for.
     
  12. Jermayn

    Jermayn Active Member

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    You can spin it however you like, but we all know for a fact that 3 of the 4 things mentioned in that speech, which was guns anti-immigration sentiment, and anti-trade sentiment (His trade deals at least) are all issues the left want the right to flip flop on. Why would he lump religion in with those 3 things if he didn't mean the same for it as well?
     
  13. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    You still haven't shown us that Obama said anything like that. Do you have a checkable source?
     
  14. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Sanders is spot on, here. Not only is Vought's antiAmerican bigotry offensive, it's theologically false. God can save whoever calls on Him, even if they are wrong about who He is.

    Jesus made that clear when He advised his followers to emulate a Samaritan heretic who had compassion on his fellow man, rather than a Levite who did not. Neither Muslims nor Jews stand condemned by God, and it's unfortunate that Vought won't accept it God's way.
     
  15. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    "The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."
    Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography 1821

    When I was younger, the republican party favored religious freedom for all. America didn't move away from them; they moved away from America.
     
  16. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Religious people have flip-flopped and abandoned traditional values to embrace an unethical, immoral, con-man who is the opposite in character to everything they have previously said they represent - trusting him (Trump) to be their political savior on the non-religious political issues (such as guns, immigration* and trade).
    Why did evangelicals (mostly, 80%~ iirc) side with Trump? Because he spoke to their fear and bitterness on those political issues in way the democrats had not. He stoked resentment, hate and fear.
    Oh, and he said he'd flip-flop his previous position on abortion.

    If the choice was so poor (and it was), the option of third-party or not voting for either was there. I understand distrust of government, democrats and republicans. What I don't get is the almost religious fervor in supporting Trump.

    *immigration does have a religious component, but Trump policy has thus far been anti-Biblical.
     
  17. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    It was that high before the latest scandal, but...
    [​IMG]
    Roughly seven-in-ten white evangelical Protestants (69%) say they approve of the way Trump is handling his job as president, according to the Center’s latest polling in January 2019. This is somewhat lower than Trump’s approval rating in the earliest days of his tenure – when about eight-in-ten white evangelicals (78%) approved of his job performance – but is in line with most polls conducted by the Center since the inauguration.
    Evangelical approval of Trump remains high, but other religious groups are less supportive

    The largest drop (about 9%) for Trump is among white evangelical Protestants. So even they are beginning to be disgusted.
     
  18. tulc

    tulc loves "SO'S YER MOM!! posts!

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    I did appreciate you posting those links, of course if you reread what was asked for, it was in reference to your claim:
    which would indicate you had to supply multiple links from different people for each of the claims you made. :wave:
    tulc(does appreciate Jermayn's efforts, it's always nice seeing links for things) :oldthumbsup:
     
  19. Jermayn

    Jermayn Active Member

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    Sorry, but the Bible is clear about Jesus being the only way to the Father. That's easily proven, unless you just don't believe the Bible.

    1 John 2:22-23 22And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ.f Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist.g 23Anyone who denies the Son doesn’t have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

    Also, recall the story about the rich man that approached Jesus about how to obtain eternal life? He said he kept all the commandments, but when Jesus told him to give his riches away and follow him, he wouldn't do it. This once again, proves works alone will not save you.

    As far as the good Samaritan, the rift between the Jews and the Samaritans was the location they worshiped God, not what God they worshiped. The parable was in response to a person asking "Who is my neighbor?". Jesus wasn't teaching people they could just worship whoever they wanted and they would be saved, as long as they were nice to one another. This is basic Christianity.
     
  20. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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