"Trump ready for US shutdown to last 'for years'"

[cow451]

If the majority of Americans opposed the wall, Hillary Clinton would've been President.

Hillary beat Hillary. Period.

 

[cow451]

If Trump does manage to get the wall built, maybe we could name it the New Berlin Wall or the Great Wall of Mexico or the New Walls of Jericho.

Or the Pink Floyd Wall

 

[EpiscipalMe]

Or the Pink Floyd Wall

The Trump Taj-Ma-Wall

 

[GlabrousDory4]

Are you implying that if a wall is put up to block suicide bombers in one country, then that's the only thing a wall can block? Doesn't it stand to reason that drug smugglers, gang members and anyone else on foot can be blocked?

I'm saying that the threat is rather different on our border and it can be addressed with more rational uses of money.

 

[Arcangl86]

If the majority of Americans opposed the wall, Hillary Clinton would've been President.

Here's my periodic reminder that almost 3 million more people voted for Hilary then Trump. Because of where those votes were, Trump still won, but it's dishonest to assume sort of popular mandate for Trump's policies.

 

[mark kennedy]

I think Trump and the Republicans have killed "bipartisan spirit." Last year Congressional leaders came to a compromise that would allow Trump to build his wall (likely give him as much as $30 billion) and, at the same time, include provisions to make DACA permanent. This was killed by Trump after he agreed, because Fox and others were calling him "Amnesty Don" as well as the Tea Party Congressmen.

Then in December, the Republicans and Democrats negotiate and come to an agreement that would fund the government until February, with the White House indicating Trump would sign the deal. Again, Fox and others criticized Trump that this spending bill, which would fund the government for a bit over two months, had no provisions for Trump's wall, and he announces that he will not honor the agreement the two sides made.

At this point, why should Congress negotiate when Trump continually "blows up" any compromises they make? This is doubly true when Trump seems unwilling to negotiate in good faith on the $5 billion for his "wall," particularly refusing to give the Democrats things that he previously promised he would (such as DACA). Instead, his "Trump" card, what he is "negotiating," is to give him what he wants and he'll allow the government to reopen -- that isn't negotiation.

Realistically, I would have to agree it's a stretch, the Senate has been the log jam all along anyway. The Freedom Caucus has been the biggest pain but in the event that there is a bipartisan consensus all bets are off, you could go around Trump. That's exactly the wake up call Trump, the Freedom Caucus and the Alt-Right needs. They are a minority with extreme agendas, the days when Trump could use his pen for a bully pulpit would end.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Israel has a wall along their West Bank. Maybe they're onto something.

Great idea! Let's have the US look more like a war-torn Middle Eastern country.

 

[mark kennedy]

Great idea! Let's have the US look more like a war-torn Middle Eastern country.

Or maybe China. They had a wall right?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Or maybe China. They had a wall right?

Yeah and very few Mexicans too!

 

[iluvatar5150]

Regarding the public perception of whether “the wall” actually means “a wall” or whether it’s understood to be a sort of shorthand for a comprehensive border plan:

The Border Wall: How a Potent Symbol Is Now Boxing Trump In The Border Wall: How a Potent Symbol Is Now Boxing Trump In

It’s quite clear that Trump’s usage is intended to be literal, without any hidden nuances.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Israel has a wall along their West Bank. Maybe they're onto something.
Google Image Result for https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Israeli_West_Bank_Barrier.jpg

So did East Germany in Berlin

 

[evoeth]

While you are certainly entitled to disagree with him (and I’m not saying that I do), there’s nothing wrong with the tactic. It’s one way presidents can get their agenda done without a majority in Congress.

Do you truly believe that it is a valid tactic for a president without congressional support or even just majority support, to nuke government when he can't get what he wants?

Do you know what a "perverse incentive" is? It is when there is a reward for actions which are harmful or destructive. It's very bad when perverse incentives exist.

Do you know why we don't negotiate with terrorists? Because it creates a perverse incentive for more terrorism. You don't get what you want when you threaten to or actually hurt people.

Do you know why we have separation of powers to begin with? Congress has the power of the purse not the president. Not even and especially not when he throws a tizzy.

 

[Hammster]

Do you truly believe that it is a valid tactic for a president without congressional support or even just majority support, to nuke government when he can't get what he wants?

Do you know what a "perverse incentive is?"

Do you know why we don't negotiate with terrorists?

Do you know why we have separation of powers to begin with? Congress has the power of the purse not the president. Not even and especially not when he throws a tizzy.

They are free to hold out then.

 

[evoeth]

They are free to hold out then.

No. Trump should not be allowed to shut down the government. So long as he is allowed, it functions as a perverse incentive.

 

[Hammster]

No. Trump should not be allowed to shut down the government. So long as he is allowed, it functions as a perverse incentive.

Is he breaking a law?

 

[JackRT]

Do you know why we don't negotiate with terrorists? Because it creates a perverse incentive for more terrorism. You don't get what you want when you threaten to or actually hurt people.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Donald Trump as a terrorist??? You know, that isn't actually too far from the truth in this situation.

 

[GlabrousDory4]

Is he breaking a law?

No. But he is playing with a force more dangerous for him than merely breaking a law. He's playing with his political capital. He risks going down as the "bad guy" in this situation and that's really the only leverage the world has on Trump.

Trump is obsessed with Trump and as we've seen time and again when people who were formerly in support of Trump speak against him they have a way of disappearing from this circle. When Trump alienates sufficient numbers of people such that no gerrymandering, voter suppression or creative application of electoral votes can save him then he's lost the only thing that matters to him.

The shut down is fully legal and fully within the levers available to all sides. Doesn't mean it should be pursued. Just as hostage taking is a form of cowardice, this is a form of hostage taking in which innocent Americans are hurt for some greater ideal. Trump doesn't think strategically so he didn't really think sufficient steps in advance. This is a gamble for him and one he'll likely lose due to his own irrational behavior.

 

[evoeth]

Is he breaking a law?

I'm not discussing legality. I'm discussing morality and ethics and what *should or should not* be legal.

Do you think we will have a more or less just society if Trump's indefinite budget veto is a legally acceptable process?

 

[Albion]

The shut down is fully legal and fully within the levers available to all sides. Doesn't mean it should be pursued. Just as hostage taking is a form of cowardice, this is a form of hostage taking in which innocent Americans are hurt for some greater ideal.

But more Americans are being hurt--really hurt--by the continued absence of a physical barrier, so I doubt that your point is made by the fact that some federal workers might have to wait weeks for their pay to show up and the tourists might not have the benefit of visiting the National Parks.

 

[GlabrousDory4]

But more Americans are being hurt--really hurt--by the continued absence of a physical barrier

Really? I mean, really? Sure there are bad things that happen on our border (drugs cross in which WE buy, undocumented aliens come in which WE HIRE), but is the crisis much worse than it was 2 years ago? Is it much worse than it was 10 years ago?

And most importantly: is a wall the best use of our money to fix the problem?

The net migration with Mexico is pretty close to zero and it's been that way for a few years now. The "caravans" we are told about are mostly people running away from gang violence and fear of their lives (part of which was caused by OUR destabilization of various central American countries).

So don't make the American tax payer pay for a bad solution to a complex problem that isn't really clearly in "crisis" mode yet.

, so I doubt that your point is made by the fact that some federal workers might have to wait weeks for their pay to show up

I an envious of your life of ease and wealth! I still remember my days back in grad school and a few years after when I was living from paycheck to paycheck. I remember having my power cut off because I couldn't pay my utility bill on time. Count yourself lucky that you have no experience with that such that you can simply blow off "waiting a few weeks" to get your paycheck.