Trump -- once again -- fails to condemn the alt-right, white supremacists

[Hank77]

No but it shows who went for lethal action first. And that makes sense because the White Nationalists were the ones who came to the rally with guns. Granted, to their credit, they didn't shoot anyone.

When I first heard about the car plowing into people I wondered "Was it an antifa guy who blew a fuse?" But hey, guess who it wasn't? It wasn't an antifa guy. It was one of the people who follow the philosophy that is dedicated to hatred of entire swaths of the human population.

I wonder if there's a correlation there?

I my opinion, as a gun owner, if those guys brought loaded guns to that type of event they are really lame brain stupid. If things got crazy and couple guys take that gun away from you, shoot some people and worse yet a cop, you are very likely to end up in jail on at least a negligence charge.

 

[SolomonVII]

I admit, I look funny at anyone who tries to tell me "well, both sides are to blame" when one of those sides is the Nazis.

When is the moral equivalence argument an apt one?

 

[NotreDame]

I'm pretty comfortable blaming the literal NAZIs for the violence that occurred - the sort of which was seen at rallies the last time a country saw a government supported by literal NAZIs.

Also you're incorrect in calling out a comparison between this and Obama's refusal to blame "radical Islam". Obama always put the blame exclusively on the radicals even if he used different names. He never said "Paris was bombed. Look, I think the French and the radical extremists both should calm down and stop the violence".

No - supported the French, blamed the extremists, and announced new air strikes and drone missions. Your entire position is absolutely a false equivalence.

Asll we have to do is look at the reactions of the dailystormer and other NAZI news sources - which were all overjoyed at the positive reaction they got from President Trump and his implicit support for them and their position. I'd say maybe if the literal NAZIs are celebrating your policy position and noting your support, maybe you should be more explicit about your opposition to their positions.

You missed the point TRG was making when he invoked Obama's refusal to use the phrase "radical" Islam as a parallel example to the derision Trump has received because he did not speak, utter, or use specific language to condemn what transpired Charlottesville. TRG's point was the right's objection in response to Obama's refusal to use the word "radical" was weak (and contrary to your assertion, Obama never used the word "radical" in relation to Islam) and similarly the left's objection to Trump's failure to specifically invoke some specific words/phrases in regards to the occurrence in Charlottesville is also weak.

 

[Rion]

And do we know that the anti-white nationalist protestors in Charlottesville were extreme communists espousing a pre-WWII anti-fascism hyper violence message? Or were they just a bunch of hippies and a few nasty people who wanted to make the extreme right feel pain?

I ask because we know what the protestors were supporting. We know what the torch-light racist rally the night before was all about. There is little question.

And perhaps I have been using the antifa monicker loosely. I simply used it as those who are standing up against white nationalist/fascists/racists (you know, like David Duke who found his way out of his hole in the ground and slithered on up to Charlottesville and braved sunlight for a little while).

I will readily agree the anti-racist protestors were violent. Clearly they were fighting too. But I have no idea that they are somehow Neo-Stalinists. Where did you see this information on that particular group?

And if they are so evil why weren't they they ones driving cars into crowds killing people?

Communism is, by its very nature, extreme. There were plenty of self-identified communists and antifa there, just go look on twitter or youtube. And yes, these types are pro-Stalinists. Maybe you missed it, but even Jeremy Corbyn, the opposition leader in the U.K. is openly attending communist rallies with images of Stalin being held up in honor.

 

[PeachyKeane]

Communism is, by its very nature, extreme.

No it isn't. Our Mennonites and the Amish are technically communist.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

did he label any of these people "thugs"?

 

[Rion]

No it isn't. Our Mennonites and the Amish are technically communist.

...what? No, seriously, what? Amish men run their own private business or farm.

 

[PeachyKeane]

...what? No, seriously, what? Amish men run their own private business or farm.

And the community puts their crops and earnings together for everyone in the community to benefit from. If Ebner needs a new barn, the community comes together and they all build it. They are not concerned with profit or competition, but the well being of the community. What exactly do you think communism is?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It really doesn't matter how they get there or if it is even logical, it is what they believe. Trump needs to put a stop to it, why won't he?

I partially agree with you...on one hand, he should vocally say "I don't want or need their support". According to Southern Poverty Law center, the KKK has dwindled down from 1930 (when over 5% of the US population were members, sadly), to today where the SPLC estimates that they have maybe 4,000-6,000 people...so it's not like mention him verbally chastising them in particular would've lost him the election since it was northern Rustbelt states that actually won him the election.

...but on the other hand, a person doesn't really control who endorses them or supports them.

For example, Trump could've burned a Klan Robe on stage to send a message to them, and racists are still going to vote against the Democrats no matter.

It's actually one of the downsides I've delved deeper into on the topic of a two party system...when you're reduced, nationally, to a "vote against" system (which is what we have), you're going to have undesirable people backing you to vote against the other person.


The issue is that, in terms of how the media handled it, it seems to be specific GOP candidates that get the microphone shoved in their face and asked "This group is supporting you right now, do you want to tell them that you don't want their support?"...as to where, the question isn't really asked of the Democratic candidates...so it's almost like they get a freebie...the get the benefits and votes that come with an endorsement, and can play naive about where their votes are coming from.

For example, the group "Hookers for Hillary" (Disclaimer: I'm not intending to compare prostitution with being a Klan member), it's a group of Nevada Prostitutes, Female Adult Film Stars, and Strippers who raised money for and endorsed Hillary.

I don't recall MSNBC putting her on the hot seat and publicly asking her "Do you want their support?" (which essentially a loaded question, you either are viewed as endorsing what they're about, or you disavow them and lose votes). If she answered "yes", it would anger the large portion of the feminists in the US who like those fields, if she answers no, it alienates a large portion of people who would view it as her siding with the evangelicals on the right wing.

He has spoken out against BLM and I'll about bet I could find where he has spoken out against Antifa, too.

In 2,000 Trump called David Duke a racist, a bigot, a problem. Someone you don't want in your party. He was speaking of the Reformed Party that he was a part of.

There's no doubt that he was a hypocrite on that one and was flat out lying in the MSNBC interview when he claimed that he never heard of David Duke. 1) He had mentioned in 2000 that he was a bigot (as you noted), and 2) C'mon, anyone who's involved with politics is aware of who David Duke is.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

No it isn't. Our Mennonites and the Amish are technically communist.

I think there's some confusion between Communism and "Communalism"

 

[Rion]

And the community puts their crops and earnings together for everyone in the community to benefit from. If Ebner needs a new barn, the community comes together and they all build it. They are not concerned with profit or competition, but the well being of the community. What exactly do you think communism is?

A political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

 

[NotreDame]

I couldn't care less about what Obama did. Trump needs to grow some, like he brags about all the time, and tell these white...and Neo=Nazis to shape up. He's called out others why not these creeps? As one poster put it very aptly, he has no problem talking smack about anyone, including federal judges, why not these guys.

Several prominent white nationalists and neo-Nazis, however, praised Trump's comments.
The founder of the Daily Stormer, a neo-Nazi and white supremacist website that considers itself a part of the alt-right, celebrated the fact that Trump "outright refused to disavow" the white nationalist rally and movement.


"People saying he cucked are shills and kikes," wrote the founder, Andrew Anglin. "He did the opposite of cuck. He refused to even mention anything to do with us. When reporters were screaming at him about White Nationalism he just walked out of the room."
Neo-nazis and white supremacists are celebrating Trump's remarks about the Charlottesville riots

They certainly see it as him being on their side.

I agree with your suggestion it is curious as to why Trump refused to specifically denounce the racist group but instead resorted to a very general and non-specific rebuke of the group.

 

[Rion]

I agree with your suggestion it is curious as to why Trump refused to specifically denounce the racist group but instead resorted to a very general and non-specific rebuke of the group.

I wish he would've named all the groups there: KKK, Neo-Nazis, Antifa, BLM. All the collectivist ideologies blowing their gaskets at once.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Communism is, by its very nature, extreme.

And you think that a bunch of Communists came to Charlottesville, held a torchlight rally chanting all sorts of pro-Stalin stuff and so angered the Alt-Right that they ultimately had to drive a car into a crowd of people killing a paralegal?

Was the paralegal one of the communist rabble rousers? How deep does the communist infiltration of the various churches in Charlottesville go? How about the general populace, many of whom came to the rally to protest against the peaceful gun-carrying white supremacists?

There were plenty of self-identified communists and antifa there, just go look on twitter or youtube. And yes, these types are pro-Stalinists.

Yes, I'm certain! Considering that most of them have zero idea who Stalin was or much of anything about the history of Russia.

But do you know who DOES? Vladimir Putin! The guy who used to be a member of the KGB! ANd today that man is our bestest friend on the international stage!

Maybe you missed it, but even Jeremy Corbyn, the opposition leader in the U.K. is openly attending communist rallies with images of Stalin being held up in honor.

Look, you're seeing a lot of international conspiracy here. What I saw was a bunch of people in a small college town in VA who were angry as hell about a bunch of neo-nazis coming to their town spreading hate. SUre there were some bad people mixed in there, but gimme a break. Do you really think the regular folks of Charlottesville couldn't possibly be annoyed with a bunch of neo-nazis descending on their town?

And, really, do you really want to go down the path of stirring up hidden Stalinist agendae? Really? Because, again, I have to remind you that Putin was a member of the KGB and while perhaps now lacking the desire to run Russia as a proletarian paradise he sure does have a lot of the same unhinged dictatorial zeal of Stalin. He just hasn't graduated to full-scale mass-murder (preferring apparently to restrict himself to just one at a time for people who bother him).

Thank heavens Trump is his friend!

Now let's drop this whole STALIN thing, can we?

 

[Obliquinaut]

I wish he would've named all the groups there: KKK, Neo-Nazis, Antifa, BLM. All the collectivist ideologies blowing their gaskets at once.

He did. It was pretty clear. His comment was the equivalent of "All Lives Matter".

 

[Obliquinaut]

However, just because there were other, more noble, groups who happened to be on the same side as the Antifa group in this particular conflict, I still don't feel that vindicates the tactics that Antifa used.

Honestly I get your point here. I agree that any violence shouldn't have been undertaken at all. And I agree that groups who DO attack others are doing evil. And perhaps I'm seeing the overall Antifa movement as a type of reaction to the infection of white supremacist/nationalist stuff. I don't recall anyone being "antifa" before the recent uptick in alt-right white nationalism.

There is no vindication of the Antifa movement. However I can see a value to standing up to people who come out with guns and chant racist slogans and dream of nazis as a way of life. And after a while people WILL stand up and meet it with hatred. Giant levels of hatred often are met with large levels of hatred. We've seen it before.

I would vastly prefer that the Left remain peaceful and be the superior philosophy because of that, but part of me was really pleased when I saw the old video footage of Spencer being punched. It is a basic human desire to see these people who talk hate so gleefully experience hatred back.

And I also realize it is wrong of me to enjoy that. But when one group preaches hate they should not be surprised when hate is meted out to them in kind.

 

[Rion]

And you think that a bunch of Communists came to Charlottesville, held a torchlight rally chanting all sorts of pro-Stalin stuff and so angered the Alt-Right that they ultimately had to drive a car into a crowd of people killing a paralegal?

Was the paralegal one of the communist rabble rousers? How deep does the communist infiltration of the various churches in Charlottesville go? How about the general populace, many of whom came to the rally to protest against the peaceful gun-carrying white supremacists?

I said none of that, so not sure what your point was there?

Yes, I'm certain! Considering that most of them have zero idea who Stalin was or much of anything about the history of Russia.

Just so we are clear, your argument is that the communists aren't bad because they're too stupid to know who Stalin was?

But do you know who DOES? Vladimir Putin! The guy who used to be a member of the KGB! ANd today that man is our bestest friend on the international stage!

That has nothing to do with the discussion, however...

Look, you're seeing a lot of international conspiracy here.

Says the man who just tried to tie this back to Russia and Putin.

What I saw was a bunch of people in a small college town in VA who were angry as hell about a bunch of neo-nazis coming to their town spreading hate. SUre there were some bad people mixed in there, but gimme a break. Do you really think the regular folks of Charlottesville couldn't possibly be annoyed with a bunch of neo-nazis descending on their town?

Oh, I'm sure there were, as there were honestly non-racists there at the so-called 'Unite the Right' rally.

And, really, do you really want to go down the path of stirring up hidden Stalinist agendae? Really? Because, again, I have to remind you that Putin was a member of the KGB and while perhaps now lacking the desire to run Russia as a proletarian paradise he sure does have a lot of the same unhinged dictatorial zeal of Stalin. He just hasn't graduated to full-scale mass-murder (preferring apparently to restrict himself to just one at a time for people who bother him).

Thank heavens Trump is his friend!

Now let's drop this whole STALIN thing, can we?

You brought up Stalin. I just mentioned the Antifa communists. If you want to drop it, feel free.

 

[PeachyKeane]

I think there's some confusion between Communism and "Communalism"

It's why I said "technically". Communism is basically just glorified Communalism.

A political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

Right. Let's recognize that these groups never had classes with which to go to war. They did not require a revolution. What's Communism after the Revolution? Everybody takes according to their needs, and works to their ability. The workers control the means of production. Work for the benefit of the community, not the individual.

My point is merely that Communism doesn't have to be extreme.

 

[PeachyKeane]

I wish he would've named all the groups there: KKK, Neo-Nazis, Antifa, BLM. All the collectivist ideologies blowing their gaskets at once.

You're saying Black Lives Matter is as bad as Nazis?

I see a striking difference between the two, even ignoring that we literally fought a war against one of these groups where the whole world got involved.

 

[PeachyKeane]

I'm impressed that the right hates the left so much that they've united with literal Nazis. That's hatred for you.