Trump is in violation of the canons of the Episcopal Church

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by FireDragon76, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Trump is in violation of the Canons of the Episcopal Church. He communes twice a year at an Episcopal Church in Palm Beach, Florida. By supporting an Amicus Curiae through the Justice Department in regards to the case before the Supreme Court, he is not upholding the Episcopal Church's baptismal covenant of seeking justice, and is subject to the discretionary discipline of the Episcopal Church. It is agaist the canons of the Episcopal Church to dicsriminate against gays in public services.

    I welcome discussion on this subject. I personally think he should not be offered communion, because his behavior is not in conformity with the Christian faith as taught in the Episcopal Church or the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. What he is doing is an egregious sacrilege that cries out to heaven, to support discrimination in Jesus name.

    The Episcopal Church should find other ways of providing pastoral support to him and his family, such as instruction and catechism in the Christian faith. The Body and Blood of Christ is for the faithful who desire "to live in love and charity with your neighbor".
     
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  2. Wayholka A saved wolf among sheep. Supporter

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    Donald Trump is Presbyterian. He's not answerable to the Episcopalian Church.
     
  3. FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Episcopal Church is responsible for the pastoral care of everyone that enters its door.

    Furthermore, it is wrong to give what is holy to dogs. He first should learn to be a sheep before he receives communion.
     
  4. Saucy Fear is faith in the enemy. Supporter

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    I don't think Trump cares about what the canons of the Episcopal church are and neither should anyone else. If you are to deny Christ to someone because you don't like them politically, that says a lot more about you and your faith.
     
  5. FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is not about politics, this is about upholding the sacred name of Jesus and not offending his sacred heart. My faith is clear, love your neighbor, no exceptions. What he is doing is sacrilege. He is anti-Christ as far as I am concerned.
     
  6. Rion Annuit Cœptis Supporter

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    Um... I don't think I can comment without violating TOS.
     
  7. Saucy Fear is faith in the enemy. Supporter

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    You are equally in violation of rebelling against what God has authorized as our leader. It is not sacrilege to set up a temporary ban on a few nations. Did you think the same when Obama put up a ban against Iraqis from coming here?
     
  8. FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm not talking about the travel ban (which while I don't particularly think it is wise, isn't a religious issue in my mind). I'm talking about the Justice Department supporting the Amicus Curiae brief in the Colorado bakers case. The justice department should be upholding justice, not denying the rights of others.

    The 'gay wedding cake' case isn't about religious freedom or free speech
     
  9. seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Do you think a Christian should be forced to create art for purpose that are abrasive to one's own conscience , and why ?, and why can't the homosexuals find a business that would cater to their desire ? simple they chose a Christian baker for exclusively creating a precedent to lift up homosexuality and cause Christianity to be disregarded , they chose to do this because they knew obama would support it
     
  10. FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, because the Christian has an erroneously formed conscience. I do not have to respect a conscience that is in the wrong. And neither should you. It is not a sin to bake a cake for gays, not even for a wedding. It is rendering a service, it is not participation in sin, anymore than a photographer participates in the crime of killing by witnessing an atrocity on film.

    In my church, Christians are not free to deny public services to gays. Any public services. This is also true in the Episcopal Church. It is against the laws of both of our churches. We typically are not heavy-handed about church laws but when it is an egregious public sinner, we reserve the right to withold sacraments until the sinner is repentant.

    I used to grant that Trump was a Christian, albeit a bad one. Now I regard him as no Christian at all. He does not uphold my faith.
     
  11. Saucy Fear is faith in the enemy. Supporter

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    What in the world does this have to do with Trump? It's the Supreme Court who is holding the hearing. And I'm sorry, but no one is beholden to your church laws. No one cares if they break your laws or not. To judge someone else based upon your set of rules isn't biblical either. Besides, the bible clearly says homoseuxality is an abomination, regardless of what your flavor of Christianity says and the baker has every right to say no.
     
  12. FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Everyone who attends our churches is a guest. We are religious institutions and have our own laws and we are free to exercise them within the confines of our institutions.

    Giving communion to Trump is wrong since his regime would deny grace to his gay neighbor. He would be communing to his damnation.
     
  13. Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I will say that this is a most interesting thread. It also reminds me somewhat of the firestorm within the Catholic Church some years back as to whether or not pro-choice politicians should be allowed to receive Communion. As it turned out, it appears that very few of the pro-choice politicians were denied Communion. Hence, if we can use that situation as a guidepost, perhaps it is not surprising that President Trump is not refused Communion at the Episcopal Church, even if he is in violation of their canons. We are living in an age of Modernism, when I guess it is left up to the individual's conscience most of the time re: the reception of Communion.
     
  14. Albion Facilitator

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    Then this is the churchs decision to make. It obviously has decided to commune the president. Ergo, there is no issue here.
     
  15. seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    If you believe in the God of the HOLY BIBLE it is 1000% Clear that homosexuality is a sin that God despises , did you read about the city of of Sodom and why God destroyed it ?

    While he loves the person who commits sin he hates the sin and refusing to repent and stop the sin a person commits they show they have an unrepentant heart . Jesus died for you , but you have to repent in order to receive the gift he has for you , do not deceive yourself that you can live a lifestyle that God has plainly stated will not be permitted into His presence but will go to the 'other' place .

    I hope the court grows a brain and realizes the Christian baker was deliberately targeted specifically to mock Christians , If God allows it it will be due to the fact that America has promoted sins against Almighty God and serve it as disciplinary measures . It is absolutely horrendous that people need to find other people who believe against what they do and try to force them to do what they choose not to do .
    I hope it is totally disposed of in the trash , people need to grow up and stop trying to force people into submission , as it has always been said -if you don't like what you are watching - turn the knob and change the channel . You need to take a very slow reading , rather a meditation on the book of Revelation regarding the 7 churches and wake up !
     
  16. FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This Amicus brief is something that recently happened, so perhaps the fact he only shows up twice a year means it hasn't occurred to them yet (he may be attending at Christmas, I don't know).

    I am thinking of trying to organize something to confront the Episcopal Church with my concerns. Perhaps a petition, but I'm seeking advice. We should continue this discussion, but perhaps many people will not be sympathetic to my point of view here. I'm not looking to argue about "what the Bible says" on the issue, I'm looking for a different-but-rational perspective from my own (and the typical biblicism here is a non-starter for me).

    If churches are going to create canons, then they should uphold them for egregious violations that threaten the mission of the Church. Episcopalians have agreed they have a mission to minister to the gay community and it is double-minded to commune someone who actively opposes their human dignity.
     
  17. Albion Facilitator

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    I am more than confident that the church and its rector know that he only shows up twice a year--just like some of the members of the parish. It doesn't matter anyway, since The Episcopal Church invites all baptized Christians of whatever denomination to commune at its altars.
     
  18. FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So do you think this is a case where the Episcopalians would never lay down the law about anything? Perhaps you being a Continuing Anglican have more experience with the Episcopal Church politics than I do (I do not know your age, but some of a certain age have experienced the politics of the Episcopal Church).

    The reason I make it my matter is that we Evangelical Lutherans are ministry partners with Episcopalians. So I have some interest in what happens there. We supposedly share the essentials of the faith, enough that we can share some common ministry together.
     
  19. Albion Facilitator

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    Frankly, there is no way of knowing the answer to that for certain, but there is nothing out of the ordinary with the president communing in that parish in the way you say he does.
     
  20. FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Perhaps they hope they can be a marginal influence on his life, since he is only there twice a year, but if he were a more regular guest, they would have more influence.

    I'm going to seek out some Episcopalians and talk to them, and get their perspective.