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Trump hypothesizes genetic basis for murderous behavior among human populations

RileyG

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Just wondering:

Why do you agree with that?

If the subject of alchemy popped up in some shape or form, would that worry you in so many degrees?

It's almost like this particular scientific theory is a dirty word.
I think eugenics is more about racism and trying to get rid of the less desirable races, from their disgusting POV.

Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood (even today) immediately come to mind.
 
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AV1611VET

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I think eugenics is more about racism and trying to get rid of the less desirable races, from their disgusting POV.

Hmmm ...

I thought science was supposed to be neutral?

Does chemistry fall into that category as well?

Since -- you know -- they invented Zyklon-B?

Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood (even today) immediately come to mind.

Okay ... now we ARE talking dirty words!
 
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Palmfever

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He was raised Presbyterian, correct.
My comment, on "Trump being a Calvinist" was intended as a joke.
Calvin for some reason, not in scripture decided that humans are not free agents.
This is the basis of calvanism.

This is an old debate long before Christ.
Following is an excerpt on Causal determinism:

Causal Determinism​

First published Thu Jan 23, 2003; substantive revision Thu Sep 21, 2023
Causal determinism is, roughly speaking, the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature. The idea is ancient, but first became subject to clarification and mathematical analysis in the eighteenth century. Determinism is deeply connected with our understanding of the physical sciences and their explanatory ambitions, on the one hand, and with our views about human free action on the other. In both of these general areas there is no agreement over whether determinism is true (or even whether it can be known true or false), and what the import for human agency would be in either case....

Determinism: Determinism is true of the world if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.
The italicized phrases are elements that require further explanation and investigation, in order for us to gain a clear understanding of the concept of determinism.

The notion of determinism may be seen as one way of cashing out a historically important nearby idea: the idea that everything can, in principle, be explained, or that everything that is, has a sufficient reason for being and being as it is, and not otherwise, i.e., Leibniz’s Principle of Sufficient Reason. Leibniz’s PSR, however, is not linked to physical laws; arguably, one way for it to be satisfied is for God to will that things should be just so and not otherwise. This does not require that physical or causal determinism hold. On the other hand, on a strict reading Leibniz’s PSR may be more demanding than determinism. Under determinism, particular facts and events are the way they are due to the laws and the particular facts of how things stood at an earlier time, for example at the beginning of time. But there need be no answer to the question “Why were things just so at the beginning of time?”, and hence no complete sufficient reason for all facts and events.[1]...

Science/cosmology attempts to quantify the relationships and origins of our universe. They search for a cause. Causality...

Attorneys would prefer a 'someone' or something that can be held responsible. Free will...

If humans are foreordained or predetermined to be saved or lost, this human experience is rubbish. Humans are just pawns, but, Calvin is wrong.
As humans, aspects of our character, appearance, and energy may be hardwired, but we do have a limited free agency.
If we believe in strict causality then we must agree with Trump.
If we have a limited free agency we make choices. To commit crime or refrain.

While there may be some, and perhaps you've run across them, they always seemed rotten to the core. As children perhaps their adults were unsavory worms.
Yet everyone makes choices. Though some never get much to choose from.

And that is my "He must be a Calvinist" remark. Sarcasm and jest.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Just wondering:

Why do you agree with that?

If the subject of alchemy popped up in some shape or form, would that worry you in so many degrees?

It's almost like this particular scientific theory (eugenics) is a dirty word.

Because eugenics has very few positive connotations and the idea that any politician, or anyone with political power, espousing such an idea in the 21st century is a very worrying thing to hear.

Alchemy is just... well, it's basically playing around with chemicals and giving yourself poisoning over poisoning anyone else.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Hmmm ...

I thought science was supposed to be neutral?

Yes, science IS neutral. The USAGE of science however...

Does chemistry fall into that category as well?

Since -- you know -- they invented Zyklon-B?

Considering that Zyklon-B was created as pesticide first THEN was used as a weapon of chemical warfare in WW1 and then used in the extermination camps by the Nazis...

Honestly, AV, you should do your own research before you post these sorts of things. Though history was never your strongest suit for sure.
 
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The Barbarian

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If the subject of alchemy popped up in some shape or form, would that worry you in so many degrees?

It's almost like this particular scientific theory (eugenics) is a dirty word.
Probably because no one ever used alchemy to go after groups of people he hated.
 
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AV1611VET

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Because eugenics has very few positive connotations ...

Big deal.

Geocentrism has even less positive connotations.

Let's fear geocentrism to the point of ostracizing it from the public domain, shall we? :doh:

... and the idea that any politician, or anyone with political power, espousing such an idea in the 21st century is a very worrying thing to hear.

Why?

Is eugenics a scientific theory that calls for other to be put to death?

What about applying eugenics (or reverse eugenics) to plant life?

Aren't they called "hybrids" or something?

Examples would be the banana we eat and winter wheat.

Alchemy is just... well, it's basically playing around with chemicals and giving yourself poisoning over poisoning anyone else.

Again, what about the scientific theory of eugenics calls for the elimination of others?
 
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stevevw

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In the middle of a rant about immigration, Trump said, "We got a lot of bad genes in our country." His campaign said later that "bad genes" was only in reference to murderers.

“Many of them murdered far more than one person, and they’re now happily living in the United States,” he added. “You know, now a murderer, I believe this, it’s in their genes. And we got a lot of bad genes in our country right now."
I think there may be some truth to this. Not specifically with murder nut perhaps with disorders that make people more supceptible to agression and impulsive behaviour.

Epigenetics shows that the stresses and negative conditions parents even grandparents can alter the expression of the genes. Where populations experiencing famine for example can pass on digestive problems or where stress can cause anxiety disorders.

If you look at the amount of disease and disorders like ADHD, Autisism, immune, anxiety, ect has grown tremendously in recent years. In some ways its like the fins of the fathers being passed on. Theres this accumulation of defects happening in the gene pool and more and more new disorders are popping up.

So it may be a combination of problems that push some over the edge. Add to this modern life is stressful and can put people into rages. We see road rage and DV increasing. Its certainly a bad mixture of negative issues.

But I don't think its genes alone. Its a contributing factor. Conditioning is also a factor, examples of bad behaviour or society condoning violence. BUt its also like a vicious cycle where modern life may cause stress and worry which then transfers onto the kids whichs feeds the stress and anxiety which effects the expression of genes.
 
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The Barbarian

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Who used eugenics to do it?

Forced sterilization policies in the US targeted minorities and those with disabilities – and lasted into the 21st century


In addition to the rise in nationalism, the modern age saw the rise of racist ideas such eugenics and antisemitism. Both of these ideas lay at the heart of Nazi ideology, and eventually informed their persecutory and genocidal policies.

Want to see more?
 
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The Barbarian

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I think there may be some truth to this. Not specifically with murder nut perhaps with disorders that make people more supceptible to agression and impulsive behaviour.
There is this...

Forget crowd sizes — a new study confirms that conservatives boast slightly larger amygdalas, the part of the brain that plays a key role in identifying and reacting to potential threats, compared to liberals.

“A slightly larger amygdala simply highlights a brain’s increased sensitivity to issues related to [the] need for security, reduction of uncertainty and threat, or perhaps more careful processing of negative stimuli,” study author Diamantis Petropoulos Petalas told The Post.


It would explain why Trump and co. are peddling stories about bad genes and eating cats; "fear always works." At least with the far right it does.

It's like the old saying that contains a grain of truth. "Liberals are open and friendly because they think all people are pretty like they are. Conservatives are surly and suspicious for the same reason."

Keeping in mind, that fear can be a healthy response. It's just that an overly active amygdala can be harmful. Likewise it's possible to be too open and friendly to strangers.

The extremes are "Who cares who is coming across the border? Everyone is a good person." and "They are bad hombres with bad genes, coming to kill us."
 
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AV1611VET

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Want to see more?

HEADLINE NEWS

The theory of gravity was used today to convey an atomic bomb from its housing in an airplane to a predetermined target on the ground.

This theory needs to be expunged from the scientific mindset, due to its anti-population tendencies.

In addition, it is to blame for MANY deaths.

From accidental falls, to deliberate jumps out of windows during the stock market crash.

:doh:
 
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The Barbarian

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Epigenetics shows that the stresses and negative conditions parents even grandparents can alter the expression of the genes. Where populations experiencing famine for example can pass on digestive problems or where stress can cause anxiety disorders.
Yes. And it remains to be seen how this might affect behavior. Behavioral epigenetics is a very new field:

Abstract

Why do we grow up to have the traits we do? Most 20th century scientists answered this question by referring only to our genes and our environments. But recent discoveries in the emerging field of behavioral epigenetics have revealed factors at the interface between genes and environments that also play crucial roles in development. These factors affect how genes work; scientists now know that what matters as much as which genes you have (and what environments you encounter) is how your genes are affected by their contexts. The discovery that what our genes do depends in part on our experiences has shed light on how Nature and Nurture interact at the molecular level inside of our bodies. Data emerging from the world's behavioral epigenetics laboratories support the idea that a person's genes alone cannot determine if, for example, he or she will end up shy, suffering from cardiovascular disease, or extremely smart. Among the environmental factors that can influence genetic activity are parenting styles, diets, and social statuses. In addition to influencing how doctors treat diseases, discoveries about behavioral epigenetics are likely to alter how biologists think about evolution, because some epigenetic effects of experience appear to be transmissible from generation to generation. This domain of research will likely change how we think about the origins of human nature. WIREs Syst Biol Med 2017, 9:e1333. doi: 10.1002/wsbm.1333
If you look at the amount of disease and disorders like ADHD, Autisism, immune, anxiety, ect has grown tremendously in recent years. In some ways its like the fins of the fathers being passed on. Theres this accumulation of defects happening in the gene pool and more and more new disorders are popping up.
It's a concern. One hint is that states with a high rate of inbreeding tend to have higher rates of social pathologies like violence.
1728745623087.png

So it may be a combination of problems that push some over the edge. Add to this modern life is stressful and can put people into rages. We see road rage and DV increasing. Its certainly a bad mixture of negative issues.

But I don't think its genes alone. Its a contributing factor. Conditioning is also a factor, examples of bad behaviour or society condoning violence. BUt its also like a vicious cycle where modern life may cause stress and worry which then transfers onto the kids whichs feeds the stress and anxiety which effects the expression of genes.
I think you're right. About this.
 
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AV1611VET

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In addition to the rise in nationalism, the modern age saw the rise of racist ideas such eugenics and antisemitism.

Eugenics is neither a "racist idea", nor "antisemitic."

Eugenics is a scientific theory.

One that, if applied correctly, will do its job, but with drastic consequences.

Consequences such as inbreeding depression.

But "racist" or "antisemitic"?

No.

According to AI Overview:

Eugenics is a discredited theory and set of practices that aims to improve the genetic quality of a human population through selective breeding:

Applied to the plant world, this is how we got winter wheat and our edible banana.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Big deal.

Geocentrism has even less positive connotations.

Let's fear geocentrism to the point of ostracizing it from the public domain, shall we? :doh:



Why?

Is eugenics a scientific theory that calls for other to be put to death?

What about applying eugenics (or reverse eugenics) to plant life?

Aren't they called "hybrids" or something?

Examples would be the banana we eat and winter wheat.



Again, what about the scientific theory of eugenics calls for the elimination of others?

It's clear that no matter what I say, you're still going to try and blame scientists and academia for anything and everything bad under the sun. So really there's no point in me answering.
 
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The Barbarian

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Eugenics is a scientific theory.
In the same sense that astrology is a scientific theory.
While today eugenics may be regarded as a pseudoscience, it was seen as cutting edge science in the early decades of the twentieth century. Eugenics societies sprang up throughout most of the industrialized world, particularly in the United States, Great Britain, and Germany.

When genes were identified and the mechanism of inheritance was confirmed, eugenics lost all scientific support. Punnett showed that it would take an incredible amount of time, even with very strict controls on mating, to remove harmful genes from a population.


But "racist" or "antisemitic"?
By the start of the 20th century, the University of Virginia had become a center of an emerging new strain of racism – eugenics – that would create and perpetuate myths created under the guise of scientific research, but ultimately was intended to demonstrate white racial superiority.

The goal of eugenic science was knowledge of how various traits – emotional, physical, intellectual – were inherited, so that such information could be applied in order to advance the human race and preserve imagined racial superiority. Eugenic scientists used the census, genealogy, measurement of physiological functions and human anatomy, as well as intelligence testing, as methods of investigation.

They believed application of eugenic knowledge, through legislation and community practices, would eliminate mental illness, physical disabilities, moral delinquency, crime and even physical illnesses. They assumed the benefit to society would be a dramatic reduction in the cost of caring for the sick, poor, mentally ill and incarcerated.

These philosophies flourished during the first decades of the 1900s, as researchers and administrators at UVA focused on the study of improving humanity through controlled reproduction, all with an eye toward promoting “desirable” heritable characteristics and suppressing supposedly undesirable ones.


Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow they have only gone so far and no farther. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories, and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.
Institute for Creation Research co-founder Henry Morris The Beginning of the World 1991

Upon returning from Germany in 1934, where more than 5,000 people per month were being forcibly sterilized, the California eugenics leader C. M. Goethe bragged to a colleague:

You will be interested to know that your work has played a powerful part in shaping the opinions of the group of intellectuals who are behind Hitler in this epoch-making program. Everywhere I sensed that their opinions have been tremendously stimulated by American thought... I want you, my dear friend, to carry this thought with you for the rest of your life, that you have really jolted into action a great government of 60 million people.[
 
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AV1611VET

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It's clear that no matter what I say, you're still going to try and blame scientists and academia for anything and everything bad under the sun. So really there's no point in me answering.

Ya -- let's blame the paperboy for inventing the theory of eugenics. :doh:

No scientists had anything to do with it, did they?

Don't get eugenics mixed up with Hitler's Final Solution.

And anyone who calls eugenics "scientific racism" is just trying to discredit eugenics.

"Scientific racism" is a contradiction in terms.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Ya -- let's blame the paperboy for inventing the theory of eugenics. :doh:

No scientists had anything to do with it, did they?

Don't get eugenics mixed up with Hitler's Final Solution.

And anyone who calls eugenics "scientific racism" is just trying to discredit eugenics.

"Scientific racism" is a contradiction in terms.

There's a difference between going "Oh, maybe there might be a way to change populations if we allow certain people to have children. It works on farms with animals" to the implicit act of doing it.

Though of course you don't give a toss. You'd see someone shot with a gun and loudly cry out "Oh why did the scientist who invented gunpowder allow this to happen!?"
 
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AV1611VET

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In the same sense that astrology is a scientific theory.

I disagree.

When genes were identified and the mechanism of inheritance was confirmed, eugenics lost all scientific support. Punnett showed that it would take an incredible amount of time, even with very strict controls on mating, to remove harmful genes from a population.

Are you telling me, Barbarian, that the theory of eugenics doesn't even work on paper?

You can't run it through a computer and have the computer agree with it?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Are you telling me, Barbarian, that the theory of eugenics doesn't even work on paper?

You can't run it through a computer and have the computer agree with it?

Just because something works, doesn't mean that it needs to attempted or followed.

Heck, that's a Star Trek Original series episode I think.
 
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