Trump allies try to recast Capitol rioters as patriots ahead of Sept. 18 ‘justice’ rally (msn.com)

[Sparagmos]

If antifa was an actual revolutionary organization, sure. But they're nothing more than brownshirts for the democrats demanding more unilateral government. They target citizens and try to intimidate them from exercising their rights to express themselves, not government officials who have overstepped the authority of their office.

Lol I figured. But the capitol rioters were "revolutionaries?" Antifa is openly hateful of Dems. Capital rioters were openly aligned with the Republican President . But they aren’t brownshirts?

 

[Fervent]

"and can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. they were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. god forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. the people cannot be all, & always, well informed. the part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive; if they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. we have had 13. states independant 11. years. there has been one rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it's natural manure."

I'm not the first to argue that resistance based on perception is commendable, in fact a necessity for the republic to last. Regardless of motive, what is important is that the government remembers they are not the masters and their people are not placid.

 

[Pommer]

Nonsense. It is not commendable to mistake your way into a rebellion. Trying to 'uphold the Constitution' by throwing wooden shoes into its very gears. These people were confused, and much blame falls on those who actively sought to confuse them.

Exactly.
Your candidate didn’t win this time?
Tough.
Get ‘Em in 2024!

But no, that’s not good enough for “Patriots”; they wanted the election to go their way and when they didn’t get it, they resorted to “petitioning the Government for the redress of a grievance” by stopping a Constitutionally mandated event.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

It is a niggle relating to the statement you made that no-one won with a minority of votes. I am not arguing that he won, only that it is possible and that cases plural have occurred where the person has won with a minority of the popular vote in contradiction to your original statement.

I understand, but it takes the conversation onto a different topic, that being whether our election mechanisms are fair or good or accurate or not. The premise is still there that a majority of votes are needed, even if they are "electoral" or "superdelegate" votes that re-shuffle popular vote in certain ways. And that comes down to our nation being a democratic republic - we are a republic that employs democratic methods. So, we have elections but we sometimes alter those from a true "majority" rule to a modified one to protect what are perceived to be the rights of the few in certain cases as well. But that's really a different topic and I don't want to further derail this thread.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Whether real or perceived, the insurrectionists believed the government to be illegitimate due to election fraud. Having such perception, it is not only their right but their duty to rise up and oppose the fraudulent government. Whether real or perceived, such action is a positive to the republic.

No it is not. Either we like it or not, in democracy majority always prevail. When majority people elected a government and accepted as their representative, that is a legitimate government representing the majority people. When some minority group try to overthrow that “legitimately elected government” , that is no longer protected under the constitution. It is treason.

What you are suggesting is not democracy. There will always people in democracy who doesn’t think the government they have don’t represent their will. But that doesn’t mean they can go and try to overthrow the government. If you believe that the US constitution suggest a minority group has the right ( Positive for republic) to overthrow the legitimately elected government because they “ perceive” the government doesn’t represent them, then US constitution is written for anarchy and not for democracy.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Some people here seem to be under the misconception that misinformation is one sided. Acting as if there is no misinformation or willful disinformation emanating from the bureaucracy, left leaning politicians and the so called intelligence community. Just recently we have been informed that it was not at all an ISISK asset that we blew up using a drone as we were told was the case. We were assured that it was almost absolutely impossible that the Covid was the result of a lab leak and that we never funded gain of function research in Wuhan and that being skeptical of the often contradictory statements of a career bureaucrat that had a long ago background in science was the equivalent of attacking science itself. These are not isolated incidents of those in government misinforming the public. There is a long history of it going back as far as I can remember from which for me starts with Eisenhower and continues through Biden there has been a continuing trend to misinform the public in matters that the government finds it inconvenient to tell the truth about and massive efforts to cover up mistakes or malfeasance or discredit those who point it out. It is not one side doing this nor is it something new. So when laws were changed at the last minute that everyone knew would favor one candidate over the other , whether that was seen by those changing the laws as a necessity due to a pandemic or whether the motivation was to make sure a crisis would not go to waste, it is not at all difficult to understand why some people might be skeptical of the whole process.

Whatever information one encounters should be doubted no matter the source or one's inclination to consider the source reliable. Most especially government should not be trusted as a source of information, it should be doubted until that information is verified in some way other than having a like minded media source report that the government says so.

 

[grasping the after wind]

No it is not. Either we like it or not, in democracy majority always prevail. When majority people elected a government and accepted as their representative, that is a legitimate government representing the majority people. When some minority group try to overthrow that “legitimately elected government” , that is no longer protected under the constitution. It is treason.

What you are suggesting is not democracy. There will always people in democracy who doesn’t think the government they have don’t represent their will. But that doesn’t mean they can go and try to overthrow the government. If you believe that the US constitution suggest a minority group has the right ( Positive for republic) to overthrow the legitimately elected government because they “ perceive” the government doesn’t represent them, then US constitution is written for anarchy and not for democracy.

The US Constitution was written for a Republic not a Democracy. You are however correct that it does not condone overthrow of the government. A bunch of people wandering around the halls of the Capitol is hardly a serious attempt at overthrowing the government. Aaron Burr would be having a good laugh at anyone that thought that was in any way comparable to what he was planning. Taking over a piece of a US city and declaring independence with a well armed squad maintaining the borders much more efficiently than the US government maintains the Southern Border, now that is a true form of insurrection and treason that Aaron Burr could respect.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

The US Constitution was written for a Republic not a Democracy. You are however correct that it does not condone overthrow of the government. A bunch of people wandering around the halls of the Capitol is hardly a serious attempt at overthrowing the government. Aaron Burr would be having a good laugh at anyone that thought that was in any way comparable to what he was planning. Taking over a piece of a US city and declaring independence with a well armed squad maintaining the borders much more efficiently than the US government maintains the Southern Border, now that is a true form of insurrection and treason that Aaron Burr could respect.

“A bunch of people wandering around the halls of the Capitol” doesn’t concern me , what concern me the most is that millions of American who were not there on Jan 6 to overthrow the government support and somehow justify “A bunch of people wandering around the halls of the Capitol”. When millions of people justify and even find it constitutional for “A bunch of people wandering around the halls of the Capitol” is no longer a “wondering around” , it is a movement to overthrow legitimately elected government.

This is what I don’t get, and may be you can educate me on this. I think only “few thousand people who stormed the capital hill” wanted to overthrow the government. Majority Americans who voted for Trump don’t think that is the way our democracy works. Majority Americans who voted for Trump thinks election is the only way to elect a leader. So why so many Trump / GOP voter are either silent or defending these “ few thousand people” ? Why not denounce these people and if you don’t like Biden administration, use constitutional mechanism to block or even impeach Biden?

 

[Fervent]

No it is not. Either we like it or not, in democracy majority always prevail. When majority people elected a government and accepted as their representative, that is a legitimate government representing the majority people. When some minority group try to overthrow that “legitimately elected government” , that is no longer protected under the constitution. It is treason.

What you are suggesting is not democracy. There will always people in democracy who doesn’t think the government they have don’t represent their will. But that doesn’t mean they can go and try to overthrow the government. If you believe that the US constitution suggest a minority group has the right ( Positive for republic) to overthrow the legitimately elected government because they “ perceive” the government doesn’t represent them, then US constitution is written for anarchy and not for democracy.

Republic, not democracy. But the issue is that people didn't believe a democatic majority had prevailed, but that a handful of political operatives had stuffed the ballots in a variety of different ways. It wasn't simply people upset their candidate lost, but people with a perception that the election was stolen. If they had not acted, it would be a sign of lethargy.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Most especially government should not be trusted as a source of information

In the case of elections, the election officials from local precincts to the several states, and the processes they oversee, are the primary and authoritative source of information.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Republic, not democracy. But the issue is that people didn't believe a democatic majority had prevailed, but that a handful of political operatives had stuffed the ballots in a variety of different ways. It wasn't simply people upset their candidate lost, but people with a perception that the election was stolen. If they had not acted, it would be a sign of lethargy.

Every election in every country there are people who think “majority didn’t prevailed” , but that doesn’t give them permission to take up arm to overthrow the government which was elected by majority.

Just because some people “believe” about something doesn’t make it legal.

Anyway, I can see you would rather support few thousands misguided people's “ state of mind” then denouncing their act. There is nothing you and I have in common to discuss this further.

 

[Mark Quayle]

do you believe those charged are "poltical prisoners?"

No, of course not, though I find the hyperbole appropriate —we still hear nothing about what happened to those who rioted for weeks in the BLM/Antifa stupidity. Nor do I believe I am among the 'Trump Allies' referenced in the article, but the very fact they are called Trump Allies, doesn't incline people reading it to ask, "I wonder which Trump Allies, would that be?" It's pretty obvious the article wants to make Trump supporters look bad.

Good journalism should not have an agenda. And as for those who don't claim to be journalists, they are still dishonest to paint with such a wide brush.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I have kept a careful (some might say obsessive) track of the people arrested, and charged and now being sentenced for their acts on Jan. 6th. You will not find many leftists in there. The one guy everybody points to smells pretty fishy. But I'll happily give you one. But the other 600+?

Any evidence for these 'claims'? Or is repeating the claim enough? Like 'rigged' elections?

No, no evidence. Google won't show it on the searches, lol.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do you really believe anything like this would have happened if Trump hadn’t been lying about election fraud for months? What would have been the basis for it without the election fraud lies?

Small hint: He wasn't lying. But the protests to the contrary are all shouted down, so....

 

[TLK Valentine]

Small hint: He wasn't lying. But the protests to the contrary are all shouted down, so....

January 6 wasn't shouted down...

 

[Mark Quayle]

January 6 wasn't shouted down...

No, of course not. It was blown all out of proportion.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

No, of course not. It was blown all out of proportion.

How?

 

[Mark Quayle]

How?

By making it sound like all of Trumps supporters are insurrectionists. By making it sound like the however many actually did illegal activities there Jan 6, attempted to, and by some reports almost succeeded in, taking down the government.

By hypocrisy. By omission of parallel and worse activities in the BLM/Antifa riots.

 

[Pommer]

Small hint: He wasn't lying. But the protests to the contrary are all shouted down, so....

He wasn’t lying that the GOP is so filled with such blatantly incompetent nincompoops that they allowed the Democrats to “steal the election”?

You’re mad at the wrong people, friend!

 

[Pommer]

By making it sound like all of Trumps supporters are insurrectionists. By making it sound like the however many actually did illegal activities there Jan 6, attempted to, and by some reports almost succeeded in, taking down the government.

By hypocrisy. By omission of parallel and worse activities in the BLM/Antifa riots.

I took the reporting to assume that only the people who had infiltrated the Capital Building itself and those who did violence to persons or property were “the insurrectionists”.

My in-laws are ardent Trump supporters but not insurrectionists.