Trump admits he lied to Americans about COVID-19

[Arc F1]

Yep. So do animals. If we drop two rabbits into an environment with food and also predators/parasites/etc. Would the likelihoods be different if we dropped 200 of them into the environment?



Turns out, it doesn't work that way. Hence the minimal infectious dose. That's why higher doses tend to produce more illnesses and more severe illnesses. And if we had zero immunity, everyone exposed would become severely ill. Which clearly isn't the case.

And it's why masks and other precautions are effective.

What is the minimal infectious dose? Where did you get that information? It's always been my understanding that we had no immunity at all seeing how nobody was ever exposed.

 

[Sistrin]

The revelation is one of many in journalist Bob Woodward’s forthcoming book...

Thank you for proving my point.

Seriously, do you even know the definition of the word truth?

This is now the fourth time you have taken my words and attempted to pass them off as your own. Perhaps you emulate Biden far more than the rest of us are already aware.

 

[Redwingfan9]

It's a puzzle to me why the extreme right assumes that while the people of other nations didn't panic when told the truth, Americans are not capable of the same maturity.

Why do you even think that?

Every other country did the exact same thing Trump did. Outside of China, no one locked down before March. They all had the same information as Trump. As it turns out the hysteria was misplaced. Rather than 3 million American deaths we're at 9k from Covid alone and around 200k with an average of 2.5 co-morbidities. Killer yes but hardly worth the overreaction.

 

[The Barbarian]

Every other country did the exact same thing Trump did.

No:

Angela Merkel draws on science background in Covid-19 explainer

This article is more than 4 months old

German chancellor excels in describing epidemiological basis of lockdown exit strategy
Angela Merkel draws on science background in Covid-19 explainer

Since its first confirmed case of COVID-19 in late January, South Korea has shown a determination in the face of the virus that appears to be paying off. From a sudden spike in the number of cases to its decision to implement widespread testing, South Korea has shown itself able to respond quickly and decisively.


“We acted early. But much of it surprised us – especially how fast it moves,” the Foreign Minister explains. The first 30 cases identified in South Korea were handled in a steady and diligent manner. But that all changed with the appearance of Patient 31.
...
Foreign Minister Kang also explains that being open with people and securing their trust is vitally important. “The key to our success has been absolute transparency with the public – sharing every detail of how this virus is evolving, how it is spreading and what the government is doing about it, warts and all.”
South Korea's foreign minister explains how the country contained COVID-19

I'm wondering why you think Americans would have panicked if they were told the truth by their president, when the people of other nations took it very well.

 

[The Barbarian]

This is now the fourth time you have taken my words and attempted to pass them off as your own.

I've asked you for a reason. You continue to ignore the questions and bring up distractions.

Perhaps you emulate Trump far more than the rest of us are already aware.

Here's a hint for you:
What kind of criticism is easiest to turn on the accuser?

When you figure that out, you'll know why it's happening to you. If you do figure it out, and act on it, you'll far more effective in advocating your views. Worth a try?

 

[Sistrin]

Perhaps you emulate Trump far more than the rest of us are already aware.

This is now the fifth time you have taken my words and attempted to pass them off as your own.

When you figure that out, you'll know why it's happening to you.

In context of this thread the only thing which has happened to me is I have wasted time on someone incapable of forming an original thought.

 

[The Barbarian]

What is the minimal infectious dose?

It's defined as:
: the smallest quantity of infectious material that regularly produces infection —abbreviation MID
Medical Definition of MINIMAL INFECTIOUS DOSE

The dose is normally determined by:
d= c x m
where:
d = number of bacteria i.e. dose
c = concentration of bacteria
and m=mass of material carrying the dose

in the case of inhaled material, usually particles/cubic meter or some other volume are measured.

Viral dynamics in mild and severe cases of COVID-19
The Lancet Infectious Diseases, ISSN: 1473-3099, Vol: 20, Issue: 6, Page: 656-657
We noted that the DCt values of severe cases were significantly lower than those of mild cases at the time of admission (appendix). Nasopharyngeal swabs from both the left and right nasal cavities of the same patient were kept in a sample collection tube containing 3 mL of standard viral transport medium. All samples were collected according to WHO guidelines.
5
The mean viral load of severe cases was around 60 times higher than that of mild cases, suggesting that higher viral loads might be associated with severe clinical outcomes. We further stratified these data according to the day of disease onset at the time of sampling. The DCt values of severe cases remained significantly lower for the first 12 days after onset than those of corresponding mild cases (figure A). We also studied serial samples from 21 mild and ten severe cases (figure B). Mild cases were found to have an early viral clearance, with 90% of these patients repeatedly testing negative on RT-PCR by day 10 post-onset. By contrast, all severe cases still tested positive at or beyond day 10 post-onset. Overall, our data indicate that, similar to SARS in 2002–03,

patients with severe COVID-19 tend to have a high viral load and a long virus-shedding period. This finding suggests that the viral load of SARS-CoV-2 might be a useful marker for assessing disease severity and prognosis.

Where did you get that information?

My bachelor's degree is in bacteriology. So virology and pathogenic micro was a requirement as was at least one course in immunology. Initially, I intended to get my graduate degree in immunology, but the draft intervened, and things took a different direction.

It's always been my understanding that we had no immunity at all seeing how nobody was ever exposed.

Great question. There are layers on layers of immune systems, and some of them, while primitive and not very effective, do work to a degree. Properdin, for example, has a very wide range of non-self stuff that it can bind and inactivate.

And if you've got some immunity to other coronaviruses, you have some immunity to the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19.

And there are leukocytes that will encounter this new virus and stimulate the production of immune globulins that will attack it. This is why a recovering patient has immune globulins for the virus; the body started making them.

It's more complex than I've suggested, but to some degree, all of us have some natural protection to almost all microbes. Even most immune compromised people have some immunity.

 

[The Barbarian]

I've asked you for a reason. You continue to ignore the questions and bring up distractions.

Perhaps you emulate Trump far more than the rest of us are already aware.

Here's a hint for you:
What kind of criticism is easiest to turn on the accuser?

When you figure that out, you'll know why it's happening to you. If you do figure it out, and act on it, you'll far more effective in advocating your views. Worth a try?

In context of this thread the only thing which has happened to me is I have wasted time on someone incapable of forming an original thought.

My criticism is rather that you seem very resistant to learning from experience.

 

[Arc F1]

It's defined as:
: the smallest quantity of infectious material that regularly produces infection —abbreviation MID
Medical Definition of MINIMAL INFECTIOUS DOSE

The dose is normally determined by:

where:
d = number of bacteria i.e. dose
c = concentration of bacteria
and m=mass of material carrying the dose

in the case of inhaled material, usually particles/cubic meter or some other volume are measured.

Viral dynamics in mild and severe cases of COVID-19
The Lancet Infectious Diseases, ISSN: 1473-3099, Vol: 20, Issue: 6, Page: 656-657
We noted that the DCt values of severe cases were significantly lower than those of mild cases at the time of admission (appendix). Nasopharyngeal swabs from both the left and right nasal cavities of the same patient were kept in a sample collection tube containing 3 mL of standard viral transport medium. All samples were collected according to WHO guidelines.
5
The mean viral load of severe cases was around 60 times higher than that of mild cases, suggesting that higher viral loads might be associated with severe clinical outcomes. We further stratified these data according to the day of disease onset at the time of sampling. The DCt values of severe cases remained significantly lower for the first 12 days after onset than those of corresponding mild cases (figure A). We also studied serial samples from 21 mild and ten severe cases (figure B). Mild cases were found to have an early viral clearance, with 90% of these patients repeatedly testing negative on RT-PCR by day 10 post-onset. By contrast, all severe cases still tested positive at or beyond day 10 post-onset. Overall, our data indicate that, similar to SARS in 2002–03,

patients with severe COVID-19 tend to have a high viral load and a long virus-shedding period. This finding suggests that the viral load of SARS-CoV-2 might be a useful marker for assessing disease severity and prognosis.



My bachelor's degree is in bacteriology. So virology and pathogenic micro was a requirement as was at least one course in immunology. Initially, I intended to get my graduate degree in immunology, but the draft intervened, and things took a different direction.



Great question. There are layers on layers of immune systems, and some of them, while primitive and not very effective, do work to a degree. Properdin, for example, has a very wide range of non-self stuff that it can bind and inactivate.

And if you've got some immunity to other coronaviruses, you have some immunity to the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19.

And there are leukocytes that will encounter this new virus and stimulate the production of immune globulins that will attack it. This is why a recovering patient has immune globulins for the virus; the body started making them.

It's more complex than I've suggested, but to some degree, all of us have some natural protection to almost all microbes. Even most immune compromised people have some immunity.

I do wish it would go away. I have almost no immune system so I'm used to getting pneumonia but covid took it up a notch. I thought the first time in January I was a goner. Four times already and it keeps getting milder so I must be building up something against it. I get steroid injections every few months the one in January is what saved me and cleared my lungs I believe. I will say though that my lungs always heal after pneumonia but this time I'm just not feeling it going back to normal.

 

[The Barbarian]

I do wish it would go away. I have almost no immune system so I'm used to getting pneumonia but covid took it up a notch. I thought the first time in January I was a goner. Four times already and it keeps getting milder so I must be building up something against it. I get steroid injections every few months the one in January is what saved me and cleared my lungs I believe. I will say though that my lungs always heal after pneumonia but this time I'm just not feeling it going back to normal.

Uhhh... you do know that steroid injections can impair your immune system, right? It's not known that it makes you more vulnerable to COVID-19, but it very well might.

Fact: There is low-quality evidence that a single intra-articular corticosteroid injection may increase the risk of contracting the influenza virus. No study has yet been published that examines whether a corticosteroid injection increases the risk of contracting COVID-19 or alters the clinical course of a subsequent infection. While caution is advised based on this indirect evidence, more studies are needed to determine full correlation of corticosteroid administration and risks of contracting COVID-19.

Systemic Corticosteroid Effects on Immune Cell Function

Therapeutic corticosteroids have wide-ranging physiologic effects [2]. The effect of systemic corticosteroids on immune system “compromise” is known. Dr. Anthony Fauci, Director of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since 1984 and one of the leaders of the US Coronavirus Task Force, published a seminal article on the subject in 1976 [3]. The human immune system can be simplified into two arms: 1) the innate immune system and 2) the adaptative immune system. The innate immune system is composed of neutrophils, macrophages, monocytes (collectively referred to as phagocytes), and mast cells, which react to foreign pathogens within minutes to hours. Mobilization of these cells is aided by complement activation and cytokines but does not require the presentation of an antigen and does not lead to immunological memory. The adaptive immune system, composed of lymphocytes, precisely recognizes unique antigens through cell surface receptors. The adaptive immune system is activated when the innate immune response is insufficient to control an infection. Systemic corticosteroid therapy may adversely affect both the innate and adaptive immune response. The ability of neutrophils to migrate to sites of infection is impaired by corticosteroids [4]. Macrophage and monocyte function may also be inhibited by corticosteroids [5]. The capability of plasma cells (terminally differentiated B-lymphocytes) to produce immunoglobulins IgG and IgA is reduced 10–20% by corticosteroids [6]. Alternatively, a small body of literature indicates that corticosteroids may enhance the innate immune response in the epithelium in certain regions [7]. However, the balance of corticosteroid effects is generally considered to impair the immune response. This literature describes the effects of oral and other forms of systemic corticosteroid administration; the exact correlation to injection therapy is unknown, yet plausibly has similar effects.
Corticosteroid Injections and COVID-19 Infection Risk

You doctor would have to assess the relative benefits and hazards of using steroids to treat you. And each of us is different, so in your case, it might be advisable, even if it's not advisable for most people. I managed an allergy-immunology clinic in the AF, and my policy was that the techs would never give a live-virus vaccine to anyone who was immune-compromised or on any immune-suppressive medication without a consult by the clinic physician. Every doctor who rotated through the clinic supported the policy.

 

[Arc F1]

Uhhh... you do know that steroid injections can impair your immune system, right? It's not known that it makes you more vulnerable to COVID-19, but it very well might.

Fact: There is low-quality evidence that a single intra-articular corticosteroid injection may increase the risk of contracting the influenza virus. No study has yet been published that examines whether a corticosteroid injection increases the risk of contracting COVID-19 or alters the clinical course of a subsequent infection. While caution is advised based on this indirect evidence, more studies are needed to determine full correlation of corticosteroid administration and risks of contracting COVID-19.

Systemic Corticosteroid Effects on Immune Cell Function

Therapeutic corticosteroids have wide-ranging physiologic effects [2]. The effect of systemic corticosteroids on immune system “compromise” is known. Dr. Anthony Fauci, Director of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since 1984 and one of the leaders of the US Coronavirus Task Force, published a seminal article on the subject in 1976 [3]. The human immune system can be simplified into two arms: 1) the innate immune system and 2) the adaptative immune system. The innate immune system is composed of neutrophils, macrophages, monocytes (collectively referred to as phagocytes), and mast cells, which react to foreign pathogens within minutes to hours. Mobilization of these cells is aided by complement activation and cytokines but does not require the presentation of an antigen and does not lead to immunological memory. The adaptive immune system, composed of lymphocytes, precisely recognizes unique antigens through cell surface receptors. The adaptive immune system is activated when the innate immune response is insufficient to control an infection. Systemic corticosteroid therapy may adversely affect both the innate and adaptive immune response. The ability of neutrophils to migrate to sites of infection is impaired by corticosteroids [4]. Macrophage and monocyte function may also be inhibited by corticosteroids [5]. The capability of plasma cells (terminally differentiated B-lymphocytes) to produce immunoglobulins IgG and IgA is reduced 10–20% by corticosteroids [6]. Alternatively, a small body of literature indicates that corticosteroids may enhance the innate immune response in the epithelium in certain regions [7]. However, the balance of corticosteroid effects is generally considered to impair the immune response. This literature describes the effects of oral and other forms of systemic corticosteroid administration; the exact correlation to injection therapy is unknown, yet plausibly has similar effects.
Corticosteroid Injections and COVID-19 Infection Risk

You doctor would have to assess the relative benefits and hazards of using steroids to treat you. And each of us is different, so in your case, it might be advisable, even if it's not advisable for most people. I managed an allergy-immunology clinic in the AF, and my policy was that the techs would never give a live-virus vaccine to anyone who was immune-compromised or on any immune-suppressive medication without a consult by the clinic physician. Every doctor who rotated through the clinic supported the policy.

I've only had success with one steroid and that's solu-medrol. None of the others did a thing. For some strange reason it also lowers my wbc count instead of raising it. The cancer doctor threw a fit and ordered it stopped and within a month the count started rising again. Went back to getting the shots and it settled in around 17k and stayed there. He let it rise back to 60k before letting me start taking the shots again

 

[The Barbarian]

I've only had success with one steroid and that's solu-medrol. None of the others did a thing. For some strange reason it also lowers my wbc count instead of raising it. The cancer doctor threw a fit and ordered it stopped and within a month the count started rising again. Went back to getting the shots and it settled in around 17k and stayed there. He let it rise back to 60k before letting me start taking the shots again

So he's paying attention to the things he needs to. That's good for you.

 

[Arc F1]

So he's paying attention to the things he needs to. That's good for you.

It took me a while to find a good doctor. Having gone 50 years without getting sick I had no relationship with any doctors. The first random guy I saw kept telling me it was just stress and started prescribing a ton of brand name drugs. I trusted him because I didn't know any better. After about a year of seeing him every month I finally changed doctors and within the first week found out I had leukemia. She immediately took me off the six or eight drugs this guy had me on. I was so sick at that point I wasn't even getting out of bed. I was covered in sores, my bones were killing me and I had random tumors popping up all over the place. I had also just finished my third round of pneumonia in one year. That year alone he put me on antibiotics 15 times. Maybe the guy was trying to kill me lol

 

[The Barbarian]

It took me a while to find a good doctor.
Having gone 50 years without getting sick I had no relationship with any doctors.

I hear you. I was never in a hospital as a paitient until I was past 70. Now several times. That's how it works.

The first random guy I saw kept telling me it was just stress and started prescribing a ton of brand name drugs. I trusted him because I didn't know any better. After about a year of seeing him every month I finally changed doctors and within the first week found out I had leukemia. She immediately took me off the six or eight drugs this guy had me on. I was so sick at that point I wasn't even getting out of bed. I was covered in sores, my bones were killing me and I had random tumors popping up all over the place. I had also just finished my third round of pneumonia in one year. That year alone he put me on antibiotics 15 times. Maybe the guy was trying to kill me lol

Some medical ethicists claim that medical error is the third most common cause of death in the U.S. It has to do with the economics of for-profit doctoring.

I'm pleased to hear you've found the right doctor. My prayers and best wishes for your recovery.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Trump admits downplaying danger of coronavirus, even as he knew it was extremely dangerous
President Donald Trump’s advisers warned him as early as late January that the coronavirus pandemic, then taking root in China, could cost countless lives in America.

Despite this stark warning, revealed by Bob Woodward in his new book Rage and first reported by CNN, Trump downplayed the pandemic—the exact opposite of what any responsible leader should do, experts told The Daily Beast.

As a result, tens of thousands of Americans have died unnecessarily, the same experts said. “This will be case study for decades to come in schools of health for how things can go wrong,” Anthony Alberg, a University of South Carolina epidemiologist, told The Daily Beast.
...
Exactly what Trump understood about SARS-CoV-2, and when, has been the subject of intensive debate since the pathogen first appeared in Wuhan, China, back in December. Some observers assumed Trump truly didn’t understand how dangerous the virus was.

As recently as May, Trump claimed that the World Health Organization engaged in a “cover-up” that deceived his administration about the severity of the pandemic. In fact, Robert O'Brien, Trump’s national security adviser, told the president the coronavirus could be the “biggest national security threat” of Trump’s administration, according to Woodward.
Health Experts: Trump ‘Has Blood on His Hands’

All of us have heard and seen people he misled, arguing that the pandemic was a "hoax" or "just flu", and that efforts to contain it were unnecessary. And they had reason to believe it; their president told them so.

And thousands of people died because he lied to us. This will be his legacy.

Dude you guys already tried this talking point back in January. It was debunked by pointing out that he was keeping consistent with the WHO and CDC. When they finally raised the alarm then he immediately followed suit.

 

[The Barbarian]

Dude you guys already tried this talking point back in January.

And now, we have audio of Trump admitting the fact. We told you so.

It was debunked by pointing out that he was keeping consistent with the WHO and CDC.

Sorry, that's false.

Americans at WHO warned Trump about spread of coronavirus last year
Contrary to claims by US president, CDC experts long-advised the White House from Geneva, officials say
A dozen US researchers, physicians and public health experts, many of them from the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention, were working full time at the Geneva headquarters of the World Health Organisation as the novel coronavirus emerged late last year and transmitted real-time information about its discovery and spread in China to the Trump administration, according to US and international officials.

A number of CDC staff members are regularly detailed to work at the WHO in Geneva as part of a rotation that has operated for years. Senior Trump-appointed health officials also consulted regularly at the highest levels with the WHO as the crisis unfolded, the officials said.

The presence of so many US officials undercuts President Donald Trump‘s assertion that the WHO’s failure to communicate the extent of the threat, born of a desire to protect China, is largely responsible for the rapid spread of the virus in the United States.
Americans at WHO warned Trump about spread of coronavirus last year

And we have his own words on tape, admitting he knew how bad it was. He claimed he "downplayed" the danger to avoid a panic, as if Americans were somehow less able to take bad news than the citiziens of other nations. And because he delayed effective action, tens of thousands of Americans died needlessly:

Lockdown Delays Cost at Least 36,000 Lives, Data Show
Even small differences in timing would have prevented the worst exponential growth, which by April had subsumed New York City, New Orleans and other major cities, researchers found.
Lockdown Delays Cost at Least 36,000 Lives, Data Show

 

[KarateCowboy]

And now, we have audio of Trump admitting the fact. We told you so.



Sorry, that's false.

Americans at WHO warned Trump about spread of coronavirus last year
Contrary to claims by US president, CDC experts long-advised the White House from Geneva, officials say
A dozen US researchers, physicians and public health experts, many of them from the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention, were working full time at the Geneva headquarters of the World Health Organisation as the novel coronavirus emerged late last year and transmitted real-time information about its discovery and spread in China to the Trump administration, according to US and international officials.

A number of CDC staff members are regularly detailed to work at the WHO in Geneva as part of a rotation that has operated for years. Senior Trump-appointed health officials also consulted regularly at the highest levels with the WHO as the crisis unfolded, the officials said.

The presence of so many US officials undercuts President Donald Trump‘s assertion that the WHO’s failure to communicate the extent of the threat, born of a desire to protect China, is largely responsible for the rapid spread of the virus in the United States.
Americans at WHO warned Trump about spread of coronavirus last year

And we have his own words on tape, admitting he knew how bad it was. He claimed he "downplayed" the danger to avoid a panic, as if Americans were somehow less able to take bad news than the citiziens of other nations. And because he delayed effective action, tens of thousands of Americans died needlessly:

Lockdown Delays Cost at Least 36,000 Lives, Data Show
Even small differences in timing would have prevented the worst exponential growth, which by April had subsumed New York City, New Orleans and other major cities, researchers found.
Lockdown Delays Cost at Least 36,000 Lives, Data Show

So, a lot of that is just outright lies. Having people at an organization does not "undercut" anything. It doesn't even make sense. And if the

And it's really a moot point. When Trump finally started taking efforts Democrat party leadership fought him tooth and nail. Pelosi, Schumer, DeBlasio, etc. said he's racist and he was fearmongering. They encouraged people to congregate in large groups at Chinese New Year festivals.

So what this amounts to is you're angry you didn't get to call him racist and fearmongering earlier.

 

[The Barbarian]

So, a lot of that is just outright lies.

Yes, we know, "THEY ARE LYING!!! ALL OF THEM ARE LYING!!!" Nice try.

And it's really a moot point.

No. Columbia University showed that if Trump had implemented controls even one week earlier, instead of "playing down" the threat (which he knew was severe) it would have saved the lives of 36,000 people.

So what this amounts to is you're angry that Woodward documented what people knew before hand; Trump knew that the pandemic was going to be bad, and lied to us about it.