• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Trump Administration To Undo ‘Oppressive’ Obama-Era Water Regulation

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by NightHawkeye, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

    +8,282
    Methodist
    Married
    From the "It's about time", files: Trump Admin To Undo ‘Oppressive’ Obama-Era Water Regulation

    Today, the Trump Administration announced its repeal of President Obama’s oppressive WOTUS regulation. For years, this rule has been used by government agencies to punish farmers and private land owners with out-of-control fines and imprisonment for simply working to protect or better their property. This is another promise kept for our farmers and ranchers as President Trump continues to remove crushing regulations from the American people.”
    ...
    In a 2016 case, 77 year old Navy veteran Joe Robertson was criminally prosecuted and served 18 months in prison because he dug ponds around his Montana home in the hopes of keeping wildfires at bay. The ponds were connected to a foot-wide “river,” so the EPA determined that Robertson had been digging too close to “navigable water” without a permit
    . [:doh:]
     
    • Informative Informative x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

    +15,481
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    I am not sure the EPA has the authority to determine if a waterway is "navigable."

    AFAIK, the only agencies to determine that is the Office of Coast Survey (part of NOAA), the Army Corp of Engineers, US Geological Survey and US Coast Guard.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  3. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

    +8,282
    Methodist
    Married
    Tell that to Joe Robertson, who served 18 months in prison ... for digging ponds.
     
  4. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

    +15,481
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    Sounds like a good reason for an appeal.
     
  5. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

    +8,282
    Methodist
    Married
    He lost the appeal ... and was sent to jail ... for digging small ponds on his property.
     
  6. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

    +15,481
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    He needs a better lawyer.
     
  7. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

    +8,282
    Methodist
    Married
    The better solution is to do away with the onerous regulations.

    Good job Trump. :oldthumbsup:
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  8. iluvatar5150

    iluvatar5150 Well-Known Member

    +10,426
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Democrat
    No, it wasn't his property. It was a combination of federal property and private property that belonged to someone else. Nor were they all small.

    Basin Man Convicted of Clean Water Act Violations and Destruction of US Property

    http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2017/11/27/16-30178.pdf

    Additionally, he had been previously warned that his excavation would require a permit, yet he continued to do the work without getting the appropriate permit.
     
    • Informative Informative x 13
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  9. cow451

    cow451 The Most Interesting Poster in the Forum Supporter

    +12,451
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Or a Sharpie.
     
    • Funny Funny x 7
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  10. RocksInMyHead

    RocksInMyHead God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!

    +1,375
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Democrat
    Good thing it was the Army Corps of Engineers that established that fact in the trial then, not the EPA.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • List
  11. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

    +8,282
    Methodist
    Married
    Regardless, it appears that he eventually won the case on appeal to the Supreme Court.

    Montana man unjustly convicted of violating Clean Water Act

    The 77-year-old Navy veteran was sentenced to 18 months in prison and fined $130,000, a conviction upheld by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. Joe asked the U.S. Supreme Court to overturn his conviction because nobody should have to face prison for incorrectly guessing what the government thinks is navigable. The Supreme Court granted Joe’s petition, vacated the Ninth Circuit’s ruling, and on subsequent consideration, the Ninth Circuit threw out his unconstitutional conviction and reversed the impoverishing fine.
    :oldthumbsup:
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  12. whatbogsends

    whatbogsends Senior Veteran

    +4,060
    Atheist
    Why let facts get in the way of a good narrative?
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  13. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

    +8,282
    Methodist
    Married
    It's actually worse than being presented.

    Joe died after being sent to jail. The win on appeal was the result of continued efforts by his wife to clear his name posthumously.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
    • List
  14. whatbogsends

    whatbogsends Senior Veteran

    +4,060
    Atheist
    It doesn't change the fact that:

    is a falsehood that you put forth to promote the narrative.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  15. iluvatar5150

    iluvatar5150 Well-Known Member

    +10,426
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Democrat
    I'm not a lawyer, but the way I read the current status is that they sent it back to the 9th circuit to determine whether or not the issue is moot now that he's dead. I don't know that I'd call that a "win" yet.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  16. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

    +8,282
    Methodist
    Married
    Incorrect. From my previous link:

    Joe and his wife ran a fire fighting support truck business, and he knew that protecting his property depended on a better water supply. So in 2013 and 2014 he dug some small ponds in and around the channel, so that multiple water trucks could fill up.
    Bear in mind that the so-called channel of water here is described as 1-foot wide ... so the ponds can't have been very big.

    Why are you so focused on the matter of pond size anyway? It's not greatly relevant to the story. Even if they'd been stock ponds, it wouldn't change the idiocy of EPA designating a small stream as a "navigable waterway".
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  17. whatbogsends

    whatbogsends Senior Veteran

    +4,060
    Atheist
    The primary claim that you're factually incorrect about is where the ponds were dug.

    From the actual Department of Justice filing that iluvatar linked in post#8:

    " Additional investigation revealed that Robertson continued to construct ponds on the USFS property after May of 2014, despite being told repeatedly that he had no legal right to do so.
    ...
    The defendant’s illegal activity took place not only on public land but also on private property he didn’t own.
    "

    Some of what he dug was on United States Forest Service (USFS) property, and some of his ponds were dug on private property not his own. You are making a false claim when you say "and was sent to jail ... for digging small ponds on his property."

    As for the size, yes, your article makes that claim, and "small" is a subjective claim. Ponds are, by definition, fairly small. 70' x 70' (4900 sq. ft.) isn't particularly small.

    Again from the actual Department of Justice filing:

    "The work consisted of nine ponds of varying sizes, including some as large as approximately 4900 square feet that were placed directly in the stream and wetlands area."
     
  18. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

    +8,282
    Methodist
    Married
    Ok.

    Since we're picking nits here ... the court opinion clearly states that the EPA did not actually inform Joe that he needed permits. Instead, this is what the opinion says:
    ... his activities “very likely” required permits.​

    That's a major difference from what you and Iluvatar have been claiming, wouldn't you agree? So, using your logic, is it fair to say that you've been driving a false narrative?

    Even though the EPA had not provided proper guidance they extracted a severe penalty.

    Further, here's what the Forest Service claimed in damage, according to the court:
    ... causing more than $1,000 worth of damage to the property.
    Now, my question to you is, does Joe's prosecution sound like justice to you?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  19. iluvatar5150

    iluvatar5150 Well-Known Member

    +10,426
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Democrat
    Which court opinion?
     
  20. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

    +8,282
    Methodist
    Married
    The one you linked to. Did you read it?
     
Loading...