Trump Administration Bars Migrant from Abortion

CitizenD

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Opinion | The Trump Administration’s Power Over a Pregnant Girl

In early September, a 17-year-old girl from Central America was apprehended trying cross the border between the United States and Mexico. After being taken to a shelter for unaccompanied minors in South Texas to await immigration proceedings, she learned she was pregnant. The girl, referred to as Jane Doe in court filings, was adamant that she wanted an abortion. Because of Texas’ parental consent law, she needed to go to court to get a judge’s permission, which she did with help from Jane’s Due Process, a nonprofit legal organization that provides representation to pregnant minors in Texas. Jane’s Due Process collected money for the procedure from local abortion funds. It was scheduled for Sept. 28, near the end of Doe’s first trimester.

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Evidently, word went down to the shelter where Doe was housed that, despite the judicial authorization she’d received, the staff was not to cooperate with her abortion. On Sept. 23, her lawyers say, she was taken to an anti-abortion crisis pregnancy center, where she was forced to view an ultrasound. One of her lawyers told me that Lloyd had the shelter call Doe’s mother in her home country to tell her about the pregnancy, even though she said her mother was physically abusive. Throughout all this, Rochelle Garza, Doe’s court-appointed guardian, told me that the girl remained “unwavering in her decision to terminate the pregnancy despite the emotional abuse that she is enduring.”

A legal battle ensued. While it was fought, Garza said, the girl was placed under constant one-on-one supervision, and barred from all physical activity. When the shelter’s residents were taken on an outing to the park, Doe was made to sit on a bench while the other kids played. “They’re holding her hostage,” Amiri told me. “This is the most insane case I’ve ever worked on in my career.” (The Administration for Children and Families at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, which oversees O.R.R., sent me a statement about ensuring “our country does not become an open sanctuary for taxpayer-supported abortions by minors crossing the border illegally.” It did not respond to specific questions.)
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blackribbon

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Why would we allow a Mexican child to be killed in our country? The time to prevent a pregnancy is before the conception. After that, the baby is a unique individual person and should have it's rights protected. This is a foreign national who is a minor wanting to have her baby killed and is in the US for that purpose. I don't agree with killing babies or risking the lives of the mothers by putting them in early labor for the purpose of killing the babies. I don't care who is willing to pay for it. If she doesn't want the baby, then someone will. If she is really afraid for her life in relationship to her abusive mother, let her apply for asylum to be hear legally. The funds offered to provide the abortion can be used to take care of her in the meantime.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Why would we allow a Mexican child to be killed in our country? The time to prevent a pregnancy is before the conception. After that, the baby is a unique individual person and should have it's rights protected. This is a foreign national who is a minor wanting to have her baby killed and is in the US for that purpose. I don't agree with killing babies or risking the lives of the mothers by putting them in early labor for the purpose of killing the babies. I don't care who is willing to pay for it. If she doesn't want the baby, then someone will. If she is really afraid for her life in relationship to her abusive mother, let her apply for asylum to be hear legally. The funds offered to provide the abortion can be used to take care of her in the meantime.
I think the bigger problem is the government essentially holding her hostage and forcing her to go through with a pregnancy she clearly never wanted. For all we know, she could be carrying the baby of a coyote that raped her while bringing her into the country.
 
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CitizenD

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The time to prevent a pregnancy is before the conception.
That is a fine argument to make, but it is not the law of our land.
If she doesn't want the baby, then someone will.
Someone will what? Labor for her? Risk their health and body for her? Oh, I think I get it.

If she is really afraid for her life in relationship to her abusive mother, let her apply for asylum to be hear legally.

It's interesting that someone who just ignored the fact that abortion is legal in our country wants to fall back on legal procedure, but OK.

Asylum, step 1: Arrive in the United States.
 
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blackribbon

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That is a fine argument to make, but it is not the law of our land.

Someone will what? Labor for her? Risk their health and body for her? Oh, I think I get it.

It's interesting that someone who just ignored the fact that abortion is legal in our country wants to fall back on legal procedure, but OK.

Asylum, step 1: Arrive in the United States.

The fact that it is legal, doesn't make it right or ethical. Slavery was once legal too. So was the fact women had no rights as person either. And whether or not most people realize it, an abortion IS labor and a birth...it is just a birth of a dead child and it is very painful and more dangerous because it is a higher risk for hemorrhaging. Labor is natural and not horrible...it hurts but it is completely natural...I did it twice without pain meds. There is nothing natural about a medical or surgical abortion. And yes, they can be very painful too.

Abortion is legal. Too bad the rights of the baby aren't ever defended the same way as the rights of a mother to kill her baby out of inconvenience. An abortion is legal but it isn't a right. She is a minor and here illegally. Seeking asylum will make her presence in the US legal...however, it won't make her an adult so someone else has to make the legal decisions for her. She needs to be emancipated or placed under the guardianship of someone. I don't know that it is legal to preform a procedure like this on a minor whose parent hasn't even been tested for fitness...and again, she isn't a citizen so shouldn't be here in the first place. The true test of whether or not this is a living human being is that they are rushing before the baby somehow magically becomes legally a baby. (do you get how silly that sounds?)
 
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blackribbon

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I think the bigger problem is the government essentially holding her hostage and forcing her to go through with a pregnancy she clearly never wanted. For all we know, she could be carrying the baby of a coyote that raped her while bringing her into the country.

So send her back to her country where she has rights as a citizen and under the laws of her citizenship. And just in case you are really that ignorant, we can be pretty sure that the baby is human considering that biologically, it is not possible for a coyote and a human to have a baby.

I suspect that it is probably illegal for our doctors to kill a Mexican citizen, anyway. Our laws just make it legal to kill American babies.
 
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LoAmmi

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The fact that it is legal, doesn't make it right or ethical. Slavery was once legal too. So was the fact women had no rights as person either. And whether or not most people realize it, an abortion IS labor and a birth...it is just a birth of a dead child and it is very painful and more dangerous because it is a higher risk for hemorrhaging. Labor is natural and not horrible...it hurts but it is completely natural...I did it twice without pain meds. There is nothing natural about a medical or surgical abortion. And yes, they can be very painful too.
The stats don't back up your assertion. I'm not making a comment on abortion's morality, but the mortality rate of women is higher in childbirth and lower in abortion. I urge all pro-life people to not use false information because it undermines the entire argument if someone goes to look into it.
 
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blackribbon

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I cared for a woman laboring to give birth to a fetus that died in uterine at 8 weeks. I was giving her 1 mg IV dilaudid every hour and that wasn't touching her pain most hours. I have NEVER given that much pain med to any patient in my life. They bumped her up for an emergency D&C to help relieve her of her pain.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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So send her back to her country where she has rights as a citizen and under the laws of her citizenship.
Yes, send a pregnant teenager back across the border into the country that is falling apart due to corruption and drug cartels running the show because of our drug laws and addictions. I'm sure things will work out fine for her and her baby. That is clearly the more moral decision to make in this case.

And just in case you are really that ignorant, we can be pretty sure that the baby is human considering that biologically, it is not possible for a coyote and a human to have a baby.
You should look up the definition of a coyote or rather Coyotaje. I was not talking about desert dwelling canines.

Coyotaje - Wikipedia

I suspect that it is probably illegal for our doctors to kill a Mexican citizen, anyway. Our laws just make it legal to kill American babies.
If she became pregnant while already in the US then the baby would not be considered a Mexican citizen.
 
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blackribbon

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The stats don't back up your assertion. I'm not making a comment on abortion's morality, but the mortality rate of women is higher in childbirth and lower in abortion. I urge all pro-life people to not use false information because it undermines the entire argument if someone goes to look into it.

Where are your stats? I have cared a couple women who have almost died post medical (chemical) abortion. I haven't heard of a mother dying in birth during the same time frame in our hospital. We catch the at risk mothers care for them. Caring a baby to term almost never harms a mother. We deliver a baby if there is a risk for pre-eclampsia which is life threatening. Having an abortion is NOT safer than delivering a live baby. Do you have an info saying otherwise? I am not an uninformed pro-life person. I am a post-partum nurse and actually have held very premature babies that fight very hard to live and hold the mothers who grieve deeply when their babies ... even as early as 8 weeks, die. These are babies, with their own personalities and personhood.
 
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LoAmmi

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Where are your stats? I have cared a couple women who have almost died post medical (chemical) abortion. I haven't heard of a mother dying in birth during the same time frame in our hospital. We catch the at risk mothers care for them. Caring a baby to term almost never harms a mother. We deliver a baby if there is a risk for pre-eclampsia which is life threatening. Having an abortion is NOT safer than delivering a live baby. Do you have an info saying otherwise? I am not an uninformed pro-life person. I am a post-partum nurse and actually have held very premature babies that fight very hard to live and hold the mothers who grieve deeply when their babies ... even as early as 8 weeks, die. These are babies, with their own personalities and personhood.

The comparative safety of legal induced abortion and childbirth in the United States. - PubMed - NCBI

The fact that every conservative I personally know does not possess anything more than a high school education doesn't mean I believe all conservatives don't possess anything higher. Don't confuse personal experience (combined with a high bias likely) with stats.
 
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blackribbon

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Yes, send a pregnant teenager back across the border into the country that is falling apart due to corruption and drug cartels running the show because of our drug laws and addictions. I'm sure things will work out fine for her and her baby. That is clearly the more moral decision to make in this case.

You should look up the definition of a coyote or rather Coyotaje. I was not talking about desert dwelling canines.

Coyotaje - Wikipedia


If she became pregnant while already in the US then the baby would not be considered a Mexican citizen.

Well, since she crossed the border to have an abortion, I think I am safe in assuming the baby isn't an American. And where she conceived isn't a deciding factor in citizenship. Parental citizenship and where the baby is born is. (Funny, that even you are discussing the baby's citizenship while you are also defending her right to kill him/her.) Because the mother is a Mexican citizen, the baby is a Mexican citizen. That is a given.

My misunderstand about your use of the word "coyote" has to do with your inability to capitalize and use the correct word or clarify your meaning.

And maybe under your premise, we should kidnap all the children in Mexico because the country is falling apart. But since that isn't how the world work, she belongs in Mexico because that is her home and where her parents live.

And yes, letting her give birth is the moral thing because that baby's life matters. That baby should have the right not to be murdered because his/her mother doesn't want him/her.
 
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blackribbon

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The comparative safety of legal induced abortion and childbirth in the United States. - PubMed - NCBI

The fact that every conservative I personally know does not possess anything more than a high school education doesn't mean I believe all conservatives don't possess anything higher. Don't confuse personal experience (combined with a high bias likely) with stats.

Because as a nurse working in the labor and delivery department of a top 100 hospital that gets most of the high risk pregnancies in a major metro area means I don't understand this topic? Sounds legitimate. What makes you an expert? Your googling skills?

I can't read the article you are linking...only the abstract and the one comment gives tons of information showing why it isn't a good study. Did you actually read the research or are you basing your expertise on an abstract from a 5 year old abstract?
 
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LoAmmi

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Because as a nurse working in the labor and delivery department of a top 100 hospital that gets most of the high risk pregnancies in a major metro area means I don't understand this topic? Sounds legitimate. What makes you an expert? Your googling skills?
I'm not saying you don't understand the topic. I'm a cybersecurity guy, but I wouldn't claim to have the full knowledge of every threat posting the country. It isn't my job to have that high of a view and I'm going to guess that it isn't your job to have that high of a view is your job. Now, if you want to tell me how to do your specific job, then you are an expert.

No, I'm not an expert and neither are you. You have more experience with the specific instances you deal with, but when I've looked into this stuff before, everything suggested that there are more complications in childbirth than in abortion. It may have to do with a lot of abortions taking place early in pregnancy and it being less dangerous then, but I don't know.
 
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blackribbon

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I get to be pro-life because my job is to advocate for all my patients...even those not born yet. All pregnant women are treated as two patients no matter what stage of their pregnancy. I am expect to care for both patients. To me (besides seeing the grand majority of our micropreemies that are born alive, do go home from our hospital), the fact the fetus is considered a patient says that it IS A BABY.

Because someone else wants to call it "an inconvenience' isn't enough of a reason to change my mind. Very few abortions are ever for the reason of the mother's safety. The fact that anyone dies from an unnecessary elective medical procedure is really too many. Also, they don't report the fact that mothers who do abort have higher risk for female related issues as they get older and also have higher risk of having fertility issues.
 
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LoAmmi

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I'll also point out that when we're talking about the deaths of women due to abortion or pregnancy, we're dealing with a very small number. Something like 700 due to pregnancy and less than 10 due to abortion in the US. I think the truth is that both are probably relatively safe compared to a lot of other things.
 
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blackribbon

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I'm not saying you don't understand the topic. I'm a cybersecurity guy, but I wouldn't claim to have the full knowledge of every threat posting the country. It isn't my job to have that high of a view and I'm going to guess that it isn't your job to have that high of a view is your job. Now, if you want to tell me how to do your specific job, then you are an expert.

No, I'm not an expert and neither are you. You have more experience with the specific instances you deal with, but when I've looked into this stuff before, everything suggested that there are more complications in childbirth than in abortion. It may have to do with a lot of abortions taking place early in pregnancy and it being less dangerous then, but I don't know.

The women having complications in delivery are the mothers begging us to save their babies, not the ones who wish they had abortions. And, yes it is my job to stay up-to-date on labor & delivery and gynecology issues. Pregnant women have the same issues regardless of where they live ... the biology is the same. I don't "look into to this". I care for women who have tried to die after getting legal abortions. I was almost assaulted by one 18 year old's dad because he was mad she had almost died. Only health issue was an incomplete abortion that put her in sepsis.

But again, believe what you want. I am not going to change your mind. We now can save babies born at 22 weeks. Soon it maybe be younger than the 20 week mark that many places consider okay for a legal abortion. However, most of the aborted babies wouldn't be born early or have health issues. They are simply "inconvenient". Would you be just as okay with someone throwing away a 3 month old baby because it colics and is more inconvenient than any pregnancy ever was? A baby is a baby. And it should be protected like it is a precious life.
 
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LoAmmi

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The women having complications in delivery are the mothers begging us to save their babies, not the ones who wish they had abortions. And, yes it is my job to stay up-to-date on labor & delivery and gynecology issues. Pregnant women have the same issues regardless of where they live ... the biology is the same. I don't "look into to this". I care for women who have tried to die after getting legal abortions. I was almost assaulted by one 18 year old's dad because he was mad she had almost died. Only health issue was an incomplete abortion that put her in sepsis.

But again, believe what you want. I am not going to change your mind. We now can save babies born at 22 weeks. Soon it maybe be younger than the 20 week mark that many places consider okay for a legal abortion. However, most of the aborted babies wouldn't be born early or have health issues. They are simply "inconvenient". Would you be just as okay with someone throwing away a 3 month old baby because it colics and is more inconvenient than any pregnancy ever was? A baby is a baby. And it should be protected like it is a precious life.

You're making a number of assumptions about me. Know what happens when you make assumptions?
 
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blackribbon

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I'll also point out that when we're talking about the deaths of women due to abortion or pregnancy, we're dealing with a very small number. Something like 700 due to pregnancy and less than 10 due to abortion in the US. I think the truth is that both are probably relatively safe compared to a lot of other things.

No, you aren't reading that right. The death from abortion should be zero because they didn't have any health problems. If they had health problems, they can't preform abortions. What you are reading is the ability of our hospitals to save those who do have medical complications after they have a botched abortion. The comparison isn't apples to apples.....it is apples to tomatoes...they kind of look alike but aren't even in the same family to make a intelligent comparison. The deaths due to pregnancy are a huge variety and often an abortion would have saved them either.
 
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blackribbon

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You're making a number of assumptions about me. Know what happens when you make assumptions?

You know what it means when you change topics instead of addressing the actual issues...it means you don't have any intelligent arguments left. Stay on point.

The only assumption I made was that I couldn't change your mind. Are you arguing that?
 
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