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Trump Administration argues against basic needs for detain children

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by FreeinChrist, Jun 21, 2019.

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  1. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I definitely heard about the problem at the border early on and commented here about Trump's family separation policy. .

    Did you read the article in the OP? Apparently not.
    Perhaps this would help?
    Feds tell 9th Circuit: Detained kids ‘safe and sanitary’ without soap

    The Trump administration argued in front of a Ninth Circuit panel Tuesday that the government is not required to give soap or toothbrushes to children apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border and can have them sleep on concrete floors in frigid, overcrowded cells, despite a settlement agreement that requires detainees be kept in “safe and sanitary” facilities......

    The settlement at issue came out of Jenny Lisette Flores v. Edwin Meese, filed in 1985 on behalf of a class of unaccompanied minors fleeing torture and abuse in Central America.

    Finally agreed upon in 1997, the settlement established guidelines for the humane detention, treatment and release of minors taken into federal immigration custody. The guidelines include the right to a bond hearing and requirements that immigration authorities timely release children to parents or guardians and place those not released in facilities that meet certain standards. The facilities are supposed to be “safe and sanitary.”

    The settlement landed back in court in 2015, when class members moved to enforce it following the Obama administration’s announcement that it would scrap bond hearings because they conflicted with newer immigration laws. In legal filings, the class contended the elimination of bond hearings and dirty and dangerous conditions at short-term holding facilities operated by the Border Patrol violated the agreement.

    There is an independent monitor who per the decision to ensure compliance.
    Could it be that the Trump administration is balking at the need to comply with a court decision?
    Seems so.



    More to help:

    Reno v. Flores - Wikipedia

    The original decision was made in 1993 and upheld in 2015.

    The argument by the Trump administration was made a few days ago - that is why it is brought up now.

    I honestly wonder if folks read any of the articles.
    Is it honestly okay to deny soap and toothbrushes and towels etc to children?
    Don't they need to wash their hands after using the bathroom? Shouldn't they be able to take a bath or shower at least once a week? What if it is a small child who soils himself, being cared by an 8 year old? It is disgusting that folks think that is just fine.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  2. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Not much. The Senate passed a bill but it is more about border security and not helping the migrants. The House passed a bill today that is not about the wall and about helping care for the migrants. Adding more judges to deal with the legal cases, providing more services to the children who are detained away from their parents would be helpful.
     
  3. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    This is related:
    4 Severely Ill Migrant Toddlers Hospitalized After Lawyers Visit Border Patrol Facility

    Four toddlers were so severely ill and neglected at a U.S. Border Patrol facility in McAllen, Texas, that lawyers forced the government to hospitalize them last week.

    The children, all under age 3 with teenage mothers or guardians, were feverish, coughing, vomiting and had diarrhea, immigration attorneys told HuffPost on Friday. Some of the toddlers and infants were refusing to eat or drink. One 2-year-old’s eyes were rolled back in her head, and she was “completely unresponsive” and limp, according to Toby Gialluca, a Florida-based attorney.....

    Another mother at the same facility had a premature baby, who was “listless” and wrapped in a dirty towel, as HuffPost previously reported.

    The lawyers feared that if they had not shown up at the facility, the sick kids would have received zero medical attention and potentially died. The Trump administration has come under fire for its treatment ― and its alleged neglect ― of migrants who have been crossing the southern border in record numbers. The result is overcrowded facilities, slow medical care and in some instances, deaths.


     
  4. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    So there is a court argument that the administration shouldn't have to provide soap, toothbrushes, towels, and that the children could sleep on a cement floor..
    and there poor medical care.
     
  5. WherevertheWindblows

    WherevertheWindblows Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like the VA hospital care Trump took care of for us veterans. now that was slow medical care and death for those who fought for this country.

    My daughter died for slow medical care and she was a citizen, its not uncommon.
     
  6. rambot

    rambot Senior Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Sparagmos

    Sparagmos Well-Known Member

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    They are children, they didn’t choose which country to go to. Since when do we think it’s OK to let little children suffer abuse and neglect because of their parents’ decisions?
     
  8. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    What toothbrushes? What soap? What showers??? Did you think that putting pen to paper suddenly makes these things available??? Use some common sense....

    I can agree that everyone deserves a equal portion of bread....but that's only meaningful till the bread runs out.

    Think back to the whole "child separation" issue....were you given an explanation for it by those in charge? Did they tell you that illegals knew they could get in, and get released, if they had a child with them and pleaded asylum? Weren't you told that people would be flooding across the border with children and we'd be overwhelmed if we didn't do something?

    Well you decided to push to end child separation and do nothing.

    Well I think last month over 100,000 people came across the border seeking asylum and most of them brought children. Many of them brought someone else's children. Smuggling cartels are making a fortune off the ignorance of those who choose not to see the obvious. We can't magic up supplies for half a million people who show up unexpectedly....practically every shelter and charity along the border is overwhelmed.

    Here it is in plain English if you missed it for the hundredth time...

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/06/11/po...-hearing/index.html?r=https://www.google.com/

    "This crisis is unlike anything our country has ever faced," McAleenan said, citing a 623% increase in "total enforcement actions" this May compared to May 2017."

    "Senate Judiciary Chairman Lindsey Graham said the breaking point "has long passed" and warned that without resources "there will come a point to where we'll have complete, absolute failure to control, our border, and we are getting there daily."

    "The only way a wall would fix this problem is to build it in Mexico, so they never step foot in the United States," he said. "But once you put one foot in the United States and you claim asylum, we have a major dysfunctional system."

    So while I would normally agree that we should do everything we can to help these kids...can you agree that it's long past time we remove their ability to stay here illegally?

    If we don't do that....we're just inviting more in and the problem will grow no matter how much money we throw at it.

    Common sense.
     
  9. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    It really isn't hard to buy toothbrushes in this country. Or towels or soap. The government could do a lot of things to address this. They could ask for citizen donations and church assistance. Our country is capable of this.


    The law does need to be followed. There are laws about how those seeking asylum are to be treated. There is a moral law about how children should be treated and law in regards to Reno vs. Flores, and the subsequent decisions in in 1997 and 2015.
    What the OP article is about is the fact that the DOJ went to the 9th Circuit court and wanted to be able to deny children cushions to sleep on, soap, toothbrushes, etc and still be considered living in 'safe and sanitary' conditions as required by law.

    The judges were understandably incredulous.

    While the claim is that other people bring children in other than their parents, which is not proven, those children still need to be treated according to the law - in a safe and sanitary condition.

    Mistreating children so they can....what? Die and decrease the surplus immigrants at the border? Scrooge anyone?

    There is no excuse for child abuse.
     
  10. Go Braves

    Go Braves On semi-hiatus here. Y'all take care.

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    I didn't project anything. Have you ever taken a look at a map to realize how far Chile & Argentina are from Honduras? Peru has got a lot of poverty & violence too. A lot of the folks seeking asylum from the Golden Triangle don't speak Spanish. The United States has contributed to a lot of the problems that the folks are now fleeing from, and to boot Donald has done everything in his power to make things more desperate, make sure more folks leave. He's interested in political theater for his fan base.

    What's wrong with the United States of America? It was good enough for two of Donald Trump's three wives. The mother of four of his five children were immigrants. His wives weren't fleeing from gangs.
     
  11. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    With what???? You understand what a budget is, right? Well they're budgeted for 600% less traffic than they have.

    It's not hard to understand...imagine every school in your state suddenly had a 500% increase in enrollment. Imagine your hospital had 500% more emergency patients than it had capacity for....every month.

    What you're asking for doesn't exist. It's used up. This situation was created by people not wanting to address the problem.

    They have....they did....it's used up.

    Migrants From El Paso Shelter Likely Headed to Dallas

    Now they're trying to arrange space in the interior and ship them there.

    If you can show me where they say toothbrushes and showers, I'll agree.

    Let's be clear though...these facilities were built to hold adults for 72 hours or less. Imagine what your local police station has...and you get the idea. We can't magic up showers, toilets, nannies, or extra on site medical care where it doesn't exist. If you want these things built....email your congressman and demand they increase your taxes and build them. You might see this addressed 6 months to a year from now.


    What are they supposed to do if every dime is accounted for??? You saw the article....they're asking for an extra 1.1 billion in emergency funds. You do realize they were allocated billions extra already this year, right?

    You cannot be this naive. You have articles talking about 5 and 6 year old unaccompanied children. They didn't decide to seek asylum and come to the US....they were brought by adults who aren't their family so those adults can get a free ticket inside.

    Ok....I'll try this a different way....

    I get it. You don't want to turn away hungry poor uneducated people....especially children. You know what? I don't either. I'd like it if every problem in life had a morally acceptable solution....that's not reality though.

    The truth is, according to the same guy from DHS, 90% of families seeking asylum....don't show up for their hearing. Of those who do...the one's from the nations crossing our borders now are rejected at abnormally high levels. I'm talking about something like 80% (though I don't remember exactly, but I can probably find the numbers if you need me to). That's not a large group of people seeking asylum....it's a large group of people engaging in fraud.

    What's worse is that every climate scientist believes this is the tip of the iceberg. It's just beginning. In the next several decades....a third of the planet will be uninhabitable. It's going to be the poorest, hottest, and worst places imaginable. They expect 1 billion + people to be fleeing famine, drought, poverty and war/violence. Where will they flee to?? The US and Europe primarily. We're the wealthiest and best situated to handle climate change.

    Take a look around you though....our infrastructure is crumbling, our public institutions are underfunded, our government is cripplingly slow and reactionary instead of pro-active. If we were the most egalitarian society that ever existed....we still wouldn't be able to handle an increase in population like that. As it stands, we have serious problems dealing with the population we have now.

    Everything I just stated is true....so now all you need to do is decide if you want your children and grandchildren to be as doomed as 1/3rd of the planet is. If you are ok with that....then by all means, keep slapping band-aids on this problem until you run out of band-aids and you and yours are forced to leave seeking a better place.

    If however, you decide you don't want to doom your children and your nation....the answer is simple. Just send an email to every democratic representative in your state and tell them to fix our broken asylum and immigration laws. Tell them you won't vote for them and you'll urge everyone you know to do the same unless they fix these laws. Tell them it's an unacceptable situation that cannot be resolved by throwing money at it.

    If enough people did that, the laws would change in a matter of weeks....and the incentive to drag a child through this awful situation would disappear with the old laws.

    That's the only way you're going to see this end in your lifetime. Our pockets aren't bottomless....our charity isn't infinite....and neither is the time we have to resolve this.
     
  12. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    Here you go....just in case you thought I was mistaken about asylum seekers....

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...ys-90-of-asylum-seekers-miss-court-dates/amp/

    Also, in addition to the 2 children who died in custody last year....3 more have died. That's not counting adults who died. If you want, I can probably find out how many asylum seekers from central America get denied ...but if you'll take my word for it (and you should at this point) it's around 80% that are denied.

    These people aren't fleeing violence so much as they are fleeing poverty and the economic collapse of their nation....and dozens of nations are set to follow very soon. We simply cannot help everyone.
     
  13. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    Most of these immigrants are from Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. I haven't heard much about Argentina or Chile.

    There's a small number that speak a native language or dialect....but about 99% speak Spanish.

    This is true...but not an argument for letting anyone into the US. Every nation seeks to press it's advantages from every other nation.

    This is fantasy...Donald doesn't make droughts happen, he isn't forming gangs or drug cartels, he certainly isn't inviting in everyone who wants to come and demanding we make their stay as pleasant and consequence-free as possible.

    Lots of things....where would you like to start?
     
  14. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    Who do you think is denying funding??? You do realize that Republicans shut down the government because they wanted extra funding just 6 months ago??? Then when the president tried to declare an emergency, many liberals made jokes and many more denied there was even an emergency.

    Action on humanitarian aid uncertain as Democrats unveil funding plan

    "But Republicans said the lengthy delay from House Democrats in introducing a plan was unacceptable, coming over seven weeks after President Donald Trump officially asked for over $4 billion in humanitarian aid."

    7 weeks....they left children in this state for nearly two months because they didn't want to admit that conservatives were right about this problem. This is 100% the fault of Democrats in Congress....and in a more general sense, those Democrats unwilling to stop this problem when it could be stopped.
     
  15. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    Anyone remember this?

    Trump to declare national emergency.

    There you go...jokes. Denial.

    Anyone want to eat a slice of humble pie and admit they were wrong? Perhaps misled by the media?
     
  16. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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  17. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    There's several threads like those...all discussing the national emergency that Trump declared. It's not hard to see some of the posters blaming conservatives and Trump for this either denying the emergency was real....or making jokes...or liking the jokes made by others.

    Everyone is aware how the internet and this forum works....right? You get that we can all see your posts from just a couple of months ago?

    So why is it so hard to say...."I can admit I was wrong"? Why not admit that if perhaps you had taken these things seriously back then....we wouldn't be facing this crisis now?

    If someone is blaming Trump for this now....and made jokes about it and denied it just a few months ago when they were warned....

    It comes off like they're not genuinely concerned about the welfare of illegal immigrants and more concerned about blaming Trump regardless of the truth.
     
  18. GoldenBoy89

    GoldenBoy89 We're Still Here

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    Really now? To not provide toothbrushes and soap to people in state custody isn't being done deliberately? I find that hard to believe. What could a hundred thousand cheap toothbrushes possibly cost? We provide these things for prisoners. I don't buy this isn't being done intentionally.

    Right, when they were crossing the jungles of South and Central America and drug war destroyed Mexico... Now they're in the United States. There's no reason the wealthiest country on Earth cannot provide for the most basic needs of asylum seekers in our custody like some toothbrushes and bars of soap. The only reason they even turn themselves in to these places is because they expect to be treated at the very least like human beings.

    This is a Trump failure. The buck stops with the President. I know those aren't the words Trump lives by but it is the standard we have for our leader. If he didn't want to get blamed for any of it, he should have stayed in Mar-a-Lago. Welcome to politics Mr President.

    This didn't just start today. Immigration has been an absolute failure for him since he took office and had a Republican majority in both houses of Congress. They didn't do anything about it then and anything done by the House now immediately dies in the Senate. If anything, Democrats have been far too weak and accommodating in pointing out what an absolute failure this presidency has been on this front.
     
  19. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

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    So money is the issue?

    How completely heartless. I thought Christians were supposed to be better than thinking about money first and people second?

    Does money really come first?
     
  20. Ana the Ist

    Ana the Ist Aggressively serene!

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    Yes. Do you honestly think the people who fought tooth and nail to deny this emergency now want to admit they were wrong the entire time???


    A lot....even more if you're going to be sanitary and not recycle them. Even more if you're going to take the time to shuffle hundreds of people out of their cells to a sink. Even more if you're going to pay people to deliver the brushes and other people to make sure the people use them. If we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people a month....the cost must be in the millions.

    If you're arrested by the police....you'll be most likely stuck in a cell with a toilet and a flat space to lie while you are processed.

    Then you'll be sent to a prison with toothbrushes. Most likely though, you'll be stuck for anywhere from a few hours to a few days without. Now imagine if suddenly, those same police with the same facilities were overwhelmed with hundreds of more people than they can accommodate and you have the situation we are facing. Everything slows down....there aren't enough resources....and even outside help is strained to the breaking point.

    Does that make sense now?

    Of course there is....it's unprecedented. Nobody on the left agreed to address this problem. In all likelihood, they wanted the president to fail.

    Oh no...please. They turned down staying in Mexico because Mexico actually punishes illegal immigrants. The drug cartels are mainly operating at the northern border....southern Mexico is far less dangerous.

    That's ridiculous. How is the one person who consistently tried to address this problem to blame if everyone else fought him? I don't think you believe this.

    No, it didn't just start today. Let's take a look at your words when the president declared this an emergency months ago....


    Now why should I....or anyone else for that matter...believe you're genuinely concerned about the conditions illegal immigrants face? When you were warned about this....you made jokes. Now you're blaming the person who warned you.
     
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