True saving faith is proven by your repentance

[Al Touthentop]

This is partly true. Can someone be saved and yet not repent? No, for Christ says “unless you repent you shall likewise perish”, (Luke 13:3). But are you saved because of your repentance?

Faith in the New Testament less often refers to your belief but "the faith," the system of faith, which is the gospel. It includes the commandments Jesus gave to his apostles to preach. Paul writes in the letter to the Romans that his whole point was to bring about "obedience of faith" or to be more precise, obedience of "the faith."

While your point is correct that the commands we obey are only made effective through Christ's sacrifice, we are asked to obey the faith and the apostles put a lot of emphasis on this obedience. The faith can not become effective until we believe and obey it.

Peter tells us that one of the elements of "the faith," baptism, "now saves us." Because it cleans the flesh? No, because it washes us of our sins and gives us a "good conscience toward God." This involves our repentance. We have to turn away from our sin and have our past sins washed away. Did we do something? Sure, we got in the water. But it was Christ's sacrifice that made it possible. So we can't take credit for its effectiveness but Peter and Paul taught that we could look back on it as important. Peter wanted us to remember that our obedience in becoming baptized had cleansed us of sin. Paul taught that it put us in contact with Christ's blood (as did John in his first letter) and that because we had been baptized we were put "in Christ" and that because of this, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death."

No condemnation from what? From your past sin. He then goes on to tell them that they must continue to walk in "the faith." Not only thinking things but remaining obedient and repentant. The faith, as James points out is dead without our involvement. Merely thinking things was never what "the faith" was about though that is what many preachers tell their congregations in total opposition to the scriptures.

 

[renniks]

That is not a good excuse. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of it's sin, and of righteousness (John 16:8-9). It is up to the individual to respond to the conviction of their sin by the Spirit. If they refuse, then that is on them. Many in the church today appear to justify some level of grievous sin that the Bible condemns while they think they are saved by God's grace. Does that honestly sound like the narrow way to you?

Jesus is the narrow way and the only way to enter into salvation. It's not an excuse, it's reality. If we are required to confess every sin perfectly, we are all doomed, because we are imperfect.

 

[Al Touthentop]

These two are related, of course. But they are not synonymous.

They are in fact synonymous. The word John used is κοινωνιαν - which essentially means to have things in common. That's what a relationship is. The other ways that this word is defined is "partnership", "sharing," "partakers," and of course "fellowship."

And what does Paul write?

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"

He uses that word which is translated "fellowship" there and what does that tell you? That John's words were in perfect harmony with what Paul wrote. There is no relationship at all between light and darkness. Fellowship is relationship.

In fact, you won't find the word relationship in the new testament. The bible wasn't written yesterday and it wasn't written in English. Fellowship and partaking of things in common is what relationship is. We don't need that more recent English word to be used in order to recognize the theme.

The difference is pictured very well in the parable of the Prodigal Son. At no point in the story was the Prodigal not his father's son. The son always had this relationship to his father no matter how he carried on. But, the Prodigal's choices had cut off all fellowship with his father. They did not talk, or eat, or work, or play together; there was no intimate communion between them. It was in this sense, I think, the son was "dead" to his father. So, no, fellowship does not equal relationship.

Uh huh.

The son had no relationship with his father. He was cut off from him by his own actions. The father still loved him but it was the restoration of the relationship which caused the father to rejoice. And it was the son who came back in repentance. The father let the son, of his own free will, separate himself from that relationship. He didn't go drag him back into relationship. It was the son's repentance which caused him to seek out his father.

We are born sons of God. It is our leaving of our father through sin which causes the initial separation (death) and it isn't until we repent that we can restore this relationship (life). That's what Jesus and the new testament authors taught.

 

[Monksailor]

Give an example of a non willful sin?

Here is the Apostle Paul's response, "15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.c]">[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured]">[d] a slave to the law of sin." (Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7:15-25 - New International Version)

 

[Al Touthentop]

Jesus is the narrow way and the only way to enter into salvation. It's not an excuse, it's reality. If we are required to confess every sin perfectly, we are all doomed, because we are imperfect.

Then John's letter was futile. Because he thought it very important to tell us, and he opens up his letter telling us, that we should not be ignorant.

Knowledge is important. We don't just walk around feeling good and therefore thinking we're walking in Christ. John was concerned with knowledge. "This is how we know we know him, that we keep his commands."

To dismiss the importance of that knowledge is an insult to John and the Holy Spirit inspired words he wrote.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus is the narrow way and the only way to enter into salvation. It's not an excuse, it's reality. If we are required to confess every sin perfectly, we are all doomed, because we are imperfect.

John 16:8-9 is the reality or truth that you are not accepting. The Spirit convicts the world of sin. How much more would the Spirit do so for a believer? So there is no such thing as failing to confess of a sin. God convicts believers of sin. What do you think chastisement is all about? But by your belief here, you imply God will fail to convict us of sin. If so, this is simply rubbish.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Here is the Apostle Paul's response, "15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.c]">[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured]">[d] a slave to the law of sin." (Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7:15-25 - New International Version)

You are changing the words. The NIV is truly an awful translation but you are adding your own pretext. Shame on you. The words "sinful nature" do not exist in the Greek or the English. Paul is telling us that his fleshly desires win the argument in his mind and that it is his own yielding to sin which instills in him a conscience that is now immune to sin. He's not convicted in his heart and his mind is now deadened to the sin that he wants to commit. It's now a practice and his conscience is not pricked. The sin (disobedience) lives in him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@renniks

1 John 1:9 does not say if we confess of our sins, you are already forgiven of sin without confessing of sin. Even though we are already forgiven of our sins, confess of your sin anyways imperfectly for you cannot confess of all your serious sin within your life.

Is that what 1 John 1:9 says? No. That is what you say.

Again, 1 John 1:9 actually says,

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

So the logical order of this sentence says....

If we confess our sins, .....

And then the next part says:

he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

It's like saying, If I kick the ball, the ball will go flying across the room. But if your view of 1 John 1:9 is correct, (by way of analogy here): You are saying that the ball has already been kicked and flown across the room without me having even kicked it.

If I am correct on my understanding of what you are saying here, I see that what you are saying is nonsense in relation to what 1 John 1:9 plainly says.

 

[Neogaia777]

It is impossible for a human to be completely sinless. The holly spirit purifies us. Some of us become holly. Stil if someone thinks that he/she has no sins then he/she already commits a sin because only God is the judge. Also for a human is difficult to be fully righteous always and in every situation because a human is not a God. So I think that to be humble, careful, leaving in repentance and praying to Jesus for guidance is a good thing for us to do.

Right, my problem is not in the premise itself, but in the judging and our thinking we can judge one another in such matters, etc, for that person is sinning already, and in the doing so, whether they fully know it or fully realize it/that or not...

An many of them are saying or are stating the premise a lot, just to be judging others a lot of the time, etc, which is sin, etc, and IMO, is some of the sin or sins of the worst kind, etc, only very, very bad fruit ever becomes of it ever, etc...

An many seem completely blind to it/that, etc...

You are also "playing God", etc, which is a whole other matter all together, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Al Touthentop]

So you are saying that you have never once forgotten something which you did or said and denied having ever done or said it? That is lying, a SIN.

False accusations are a sin too.

We are called to know, not feel good. And the more you know the more immediately you know when you've erred. Even under the old law, there were sacrifices for unintentional sins. I am certain that God forgives us when we err and forget or unintentionally err. But it is incumbent on us to know the law of Christ and to seek him in prayer to cleanse us of all sin, whatever kind it may be.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@renniks:

God brought David's sins of adultery and murder to his attention so as to confess of it in Psalms 51. God used the prophet Nathaniel to point out his sins.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, it is flawed. There are two types of sin, and a true Christian cannot commit adultery, murder, lie or steal, etc. because those are willful sins against God's laws, so are against God, Himself.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Liberal teachers say this means a Christian doesn't "practice" those sins. But it actually means they have no desire to commit these sins even once.

The other type of sin is unintentional sins, that we might commit, but it is not even in our nature to want to commit these. But if we do, Jesus is our Advocate, just like in 1 John 1:7 of a person who is walking in the Spirit, yet the blood of Jesus is continuing to cleanse him of sins he isn't aware of. But there is a condition found in Matthew 6:14-15.

You apparently have not been put under the right kind of "pressure" yet, or ever faced a controversial situation, where to do a more minor wrong thing, is to the superior right thing, I guess...

That's where we get down to true morality, and/or the true law or laws or meanings and intentions of the Spirit...

God Bless!

 

[Al Touthentop]

In reply to somebody who said it was impossible for a human to be completely sinless.

Right, my problem is not in the premise itself, but in the judging and our thinking we can judge one another in such matters, etc, for that person is sinning already, and in the doing so, whether they fully know it or fully realize it/that or not...

Jesus Christ came in the flesh for the purpose of showing us that it was not impossible for a person to act in perfect obedience. That was the point. "Be perfect, for your father is perfect."

Now even so, he has given us a way to remain perfect if we mess up. But the goal is perfection. To set your standard to something lower is to reject the standard he set and then commanded that we follow.

 

[Neogaia777]

Right, my problem is not in the premise itself, but in the judging and our thinking we can judge one another in such matters, etc, for that person is sinning already, and in the doing so, whether they fully know it or fully realize it/that or not...

An many of them are saying or are stating the premise a lot, just to be judging others a lot of the time, etc, which is sin, etc, and IMO, is some of the sin or sins of the worst kind, etc, only very, very bad fruit ever becomes of it ever, etc...

An many seem completely blind to it/that, etc...

You are also "playing God", etc, which is a whole other matter all together, etc...

God Bless!

Another reason people do it, is to paint themselves ans more righteous or better than others, and as righteous as God, which I think is very wrong and very evil also...

God Bless!

 

[Monksailor]

Then John's letter was futile. Because he thought it very important to tell us, and he opens up his letter telling us, that we should not be ignorant.

Knowledge is important. We don't just walk around feeling good and therefore thinking we're walking in Christ. John was concerned with knowledge. "This is how we know we know him, that we keep his commands."

To dismiss the importance of that knowledge is an insult to John and the Holy Spirit inspired words he wrote.

Understanding God's Word from His perspective cannot be done by focusing only or even primarily upon one or a few books of the Bible or just the OT or NT. We are challenged to to take the WHOLE BIBLE in perspective as we read any verse or chaptr or book or testament. We must always keep in mind that we are seeking God's mind and not His as spoken or written from one man. His Word is all integrated and intertwined even if we in our finite minds cannot comprehend in totality. We must learn to balance the whole with the part. The same principle is translated into how we are to fellowship and function as ONE BODY in UNITY in I Cor 12: 12-27 (Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 - New International Reader's Version) which is what our Leader and Lord PRAYED earnestly for as He neared the cross in Jn 17: 6-26 (Bible Gateway passage: John 17:6-26 - New International Reader's Version.)

 

[Neogaia777]

In reply to somebody who said it was impossible for a human to be completely sinless.



Jesus Christ came in the flesh for the purpose of showing us that it was not impossible for a person to act in perfect obedience. That was the point. "Be perfect, for your father is perfect."

Now even so, he has given us a way to remain perfect if we mess up. But the goal is perfection. To set your standard to something lower is to reject the standard he set and then commanded that we follow.

When Jesus said "You must be perfect" it was under the guise and premise that many had at the time, that were "trying to be or show or prove only them own selves out to perfectly righteous and perfect" and "in and of themselves or their own will strength or their own natural abilities, or whatever only", or "only in and of themselves only", etc...

Which Jesus knew was impossible for them, etc...

But they wanted to be or play God, so...

Thought that was "the way", etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

The Bible makes it pretty clear that no one (besides God) is or can ever be or can ever truly become 100% completely sinless or as 100% totally sinlessly righteous like or as God is in this world, etc...

It/that is clear "all over it", etc...

"If we say we have no sin", etc, "all are caught or our bound up in unrighteousness or disobedience", etc, "there is none righteous, no not one", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Al Touthentop]

When Jesus said "You must be perfect" it was under the guise and premise that many had at the time, that were "trying to be or show or prove only them own selves out to perfectly righteous and perfect" and "in and of themselves or their own will strength or their own natural abilities, or whatever only", or "only in and of themselves only", etc...

Which Jesus knew was impossible for them, etc...

But they wanted to be or play God, so...

Thought that was "the way", etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

So where do we find Jesus saying it is impossible for us?

 

[Al Touthentop]

Understanding God's Word from His perspective cannot be done by focusing only or even primarily upon one or a few books of the Bible or just the OT or NT. We are challenged to to take the WHOLE BIBLE in perspective as we read any verse or chaptr or book or testament. We must always keep in mind that we are seeking God's mind and not His as spoken or written from one man. His Word is all integrated and intertwined even if we in our finite minds cannot comprehend in totality. We must learn to balance the whole with the part. The same principle is translated into how we are to fellowship and function as ONE BODY in UNITY in I Cor 12: 12-27 (Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 - New International Reader's Version) which is what our Leader and Lord PRAYED earnestly for as He neared the cross in Jn 17: 6-26 (Bible Gateway passage: John 17:6-26 - New International Reader's Version.)

Are you disputing what I had written? Because I agree with you on most of what you say, other than one thing and that is an understanding of what is written. God gave the written word for our knowledge, not our feelings. We may not know every mystery of God, but it was intended that we understand the gospel.

 

[renniks]

Then John's letter was futile. Because he thought it very important to tell us, and he opens up his letter telling us, that we should not be ignorant.

Knowledge is important. We don't just walk around feeling good and therefore thinking we're walking in Christ. John was concerned with knowledge. "This is how we know we know him, that we keep his commands."

To dismiss the importance of that knowledge is an insult to John and the Holy Spirit inspired words he wrote.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.