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Featured True saving faith is proven by your repentance

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What was Peter's willful sin? I hope you are not referring to denying Christ three times. He had not yet received the Holy Spirit, so was not empowered.
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I don’t believe his kind of grace humbles a person to keep His commands. If the president pardoned every criminal of their past crimes and he pardoned them of any future crimes they would commit, the criminal will just keep doing evil with impunity.

    Isaiah 26:10 says let grace be shown to the wicked and yet he will not learn righteousness.

    How you interpret that verse among many others is beyond me.
     
  3. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    Peter's sin was in hypocrisy which Paul called him out on. Even if you don't accept that, Ananias and Saphira willfully sinned as did Simon the Sorcerer and the man at Corinth.

    And if the Spirit prevented such things (it isn't taught anywhere that this is so) why would Paul ask this?

    15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

    18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body [g]and in your spirit, which are God’s.

    Paul says directly that people who had the Spirit could sin and had better not because they were then causing the Spirit to participate and join with them in their sins.

    That would not be possible at all if the Spirit were preventing them from sinning.
     
  4. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Have you reached perfection? No?
    The Greek word here is teleios and it can mean ‘perfect’ but is more usually used to refer to maturity or wholeness. If we have a quick look at where this word is used elsewhere in the New Testament you will see what I mean.

    Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom (1 Corinthians 2.6)

    Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind (Philippians 3.15)

    and let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature and complete (James 1.4)

    realities about humans…

    a) We are sinful. Flawed. Man is a sinner by birth and by choice. “There is none righteous, no not one” (Romans 3:10) and “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (3:23).

    b) After salvation, we do not suddenly become perfect or capable of perfection in this life. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (I John 1:8). “Who can say, ‘I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin?” (Proverbs 20:9). I was a sinner before salvation, and now am a sinner saved by grace. The nature of my sinning has changed, as have a hundred other things, but make no mistake, I have not become perfect nor capable of achieving perfection.
    Perfection comes only at the end of this life and the beginning of the next, the moment of glorification, when we see the Lord. “We know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” (I John 3:3). “Then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known” (I Corinthians 13:12). “We shall all be changed” (I Corinthians 15:51,52).

    Perfection is a characteristic bestowed on mortals, not in this life, but at the moment Christ returns and we see the Lord. This is called our “glorification.”

    So why did Jesus tell us to be fully mature as God is? To show us we can't live up to his law, but only by having our being in him.
     
  5. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    Right on! ... And it's all about having the correct and acceptable (to God) heart attitude!
    Doing our best to repent ... when we know to, and when we are prompted to by the Holy Spirit.
     
  6. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't. I have no need to fear God when I am already his child.
    I'm sure Paul knew how scary it can for a new believer to stop trusting in his natural abilities and trust in God’s Word. This is what Paul is referring to when he mentions “fear and trembling.” He isn’t talking about being afraid of God. Rather, he is helping the new believer to know that in the beginning, it will seem scary to walk by faith.
    It was also no doubt a very strange concept to Jewish believers, to think that before they couldn't even mention God's name, and now he lived within them.

    Paul emphasises this point in the very next verse.

    “For it is God which worketh IN YOU both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13

    That is supposed to be comforting, not fear inducing.
     
  7. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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  8. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    His delight is not in the strength of the horse, nor his pleasure in the legs of a man, but the LORD takes pleasure in those who fear him, in those who hope in his steadfast love.
    Psalm 147

    What does it mean to fear God? It means to revere and glorify and love him above all else.
    For the one who has found him as Savior, it's not a terrifying dread. It's more like having the biggest kid on the block, that you used to be afraid of on your side, so you're no longer afraid to face anyone or anything that is thrown at you.
     
  9. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Respect awe and adoration. That's what I would want from my children. Not fear in the sense of being terrified to come to me.
    That is a mark of a good father, that he is respected, but loved.

    But for the person that is not his child and tries to hurt one of his children? Yes, they should be terrified.
     
  10. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Seems simple enough to me. The wicked don't trust in him. They have never experienced his love.
     
  11. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I accept all the others, just didn't know what you believed Peter did. A and S both committed willful sins unto death. I'm surprised more people didn't die. Or were they just fair warnings?

    As for Peter, Paul committed the larger sin as far as I'm concerned. Peter did nothing that Paul hasn't done himself. They both trespassed. Where is the forgiveness?

    Look how Peter loves Paul.

    2 Peter 3
    14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
     
  12. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What scripture are you going to use that demonstrates that while we willfully sin, they are being forgiven? And how does adding present and future sins being automatically forgiven not a belief in OSAS?

    Your statements make it hard to know what you believe, and what you don't believe. You seem to be speaking from both sides of your mouth.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Actually, it is only a dodge (not the car maker) if you don’t explain those verses.
     
  14. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    I thought I made it clear that I believe people can fall into disbelief, but I don't believe you lose your salvation every time you sin.
    I reject two extremes: works salvation and OSAS.
     
  15. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I asked for scriptures for present and future sins. Thanks

    And are these willful sins or unintentional sins?
     
  16. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Only after you tell me how you can be a sinner by your own admission and yet claim you have to be sinless to be saved.
     
  17. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    Not relevant as it isn't what I asserted. But indeed, when God forgives me, I become perfect.
    Words do not mean the same thing everywhere they are found. The fact that they mean one thing in one context doesn't disprove their meaning in a separate context.

    realities about humans…

    We are not sinful by birth. That is something that original sin proponents teach but it is not a belief that existed in the church or the Jews prior to Augustine's introduction of that doctrine 370 years after Christ's resurrection. Paul had issues with the temptation to sin. He said as much. He told us to refrain from sin and that salvation was not a license to sin.



    John's context here is those who sin and then say they have no sin. He wasn't claiming no person could claim to be sinless. Paul himself says he was blameless under the law of Moses. Saying you have no sin when you have no sin is not lying. In fact, saying a person has sin after God has forgiven him is a lie itself.


    If you're still a sinner after being saved, then from what have you been saved? There is no point to salvation if you just keep on willfully sinning. You haven't repented. It's important to recognize that our repentance and Christ's work takes us out of the category of "sinner" and into "saint." That's why Paul addressed his audience as saints rather than continually reminding them that they were still sinners. "Dear Corinthian sinners...."

    No. If you keep looking at yourself as that after you've been saved, you've got the wrong idea. Of course you're going to keep sinning. Paul taught repeatedly that we're to look at ourselves as new creatures, not the old sinner we once were.

    And Paul was clear that he 1) had to keep from sinning (and so should we) 2) did not consider himself to have attained and would consider himself to have apprehended the final goal until he finished the race according to the rules laid out in the gospel. (See the letter to the Philippians).


    Perfection is bestowed on us when our sins are forgiven. It's obviously not something we can do for ourselves even if we do what God asks. It's his perfection that he bestows on us when we repent from sin and ask for forgiveness.




    He didn't tell us to be "fully mature" he said for us to be perfect. Specifically he was speaking of our forgiveness but he led us by example to stay away from sin.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  18. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we can categorize sins. Only God can judge them.
    In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
    Ephesians 1:7
    Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.
    Micah 7: 18-19
    He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
    Colossians 1:13-14
    He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
    1John 2:2
     
  19. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    I think this instance was like Aaron's sons who offered the strange fire. It was the first example of church giving, just like the first fire offered in the first Hebrew worship service. Here they were lying when it wasn't necessary. Holding back was not the problem. Had they sold their land and given half and told the truth about it, I don't think there would have been any issue. But they lied about how much they sold that property for and told the church (and Peter) that they had given all they had received. So God wanted I think to make an example of them for trying to glorify themselves at the church's expense.

    Paul had his sins washed away when he was baptized as it was with Peter also. But Paul rebuked Peter for allowing his fellow Jews to think they could treat Gentiles with partiality. And he led Barnabas to partake in the prejudicial attitude too. That was a sin. It was specifically the sin of not showing his fellow brethren love, and leading other Christians to sin with him. I am sure that Peter asked God for forgiveness.

    Agreed, and this in spite of the fact that Paul rebuked Peter for sinning.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    As for being a son: See 1 John 2:29, and 1 John 3:10.
     
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