True Love Waits. Maybe.

[Luther073082]

Can I say that I disagree about the age thing... I really do

Here is why. Age at first marriage has not changed THAT much. Its changed a little but not a lot.

Median Age at First Marriage, 1890–2010 — Infoplease.com

2 years older for men now. . . 4 years for women since 1890...

What has changed is culture. . .

Why has culture changed? The wide availability of contraception and the entrance of women into the workforce. . . Why is it that women now are marrying at about the same age men where marrying 100 years ago and the age of first marriage median has increased 4 years for them and only 2 for men? Well its because women too also want the career.

1. There was a lot more to lose in having a child before marriage in 1890.
2. It was harder to avoid conceiving a child in 1890

Really people where more likely to wait because the stakes where so much higher then they are now.

 

[JaneFW]

Nobody mentioned a decade other than you Chaz. I would not "make" my son wait for 10 years. I can't "make" him wait for 10 days even because he is 19. If he and his g/f said tonight that they want to get married, I can't physically or legally prevent that marriage, nor would I, other than to advise them to get counseling pdq, because they have issues that will not be worked out in the bedroom.

 

[blythe_ann]

I felt like I was the only virgin in my group of friends in high school, with the exception of my then boyfriend/now husband. Which was crazy to me, since we were in the "good" group.

We dated for 5 years and were virgins on our wedding night because it was important to follow God's will on that and we thought about our future children and wanted to have a good example for them (and, even when we were 16 and having this conversation, my husband said "I couldn't imagine our little girl sleeping with some guy!"Edit to add in case you didn't get it, he was talking about a future daughter that we will hopefully have).

But I remember many times being asked about it by other girls and having them be amazed that we were virgins. And when I found a couple people that were as well, they were very much doing it as a bragging point as Christian kids, or they weren't dating because they were against dating. Which is fine with me, to each their own!

 

[MessianicMommy]

I think you've gotten some pretty awesome responses. Where I grew up, the main issue is that parents were NOT talking to their kids and teens about sex, and about their bodies, and things "just happened".

I had a pretty awesome TLW course at the non-denom church we attended at the time before I graduated and yes - I waited until I was married to have sex. DH, who grew up around the world, and did not attend church since his confirmation in the catholic church here - ALSO waited until we were married. He never took any abstinence vows, I did.

The TLW talk we had, actually had docs and nurses on staff to answer questions and the groups split after the info was disseminated, so that girls could talk with women, and guys could talk with men. Out of the whole thing - the thing that struck me most were how many parents pulled their children OUT, because we were even talking about sex. Nothing as far as biology goes and what goes where, or positions or anything like that, but because there was frank discussion about STDs, how some could and some could not be fully prevented, what the risks were as far as pregnancy and immune systems go and that sort of thing. The other thing that struck me was how many people who were 15-18 who had not waited, because "I didn't know any different". - in other words "My parents never had the talk with me".

Did my parents make me wait? no. I made me wait. I watched a cousin, my brother and my sister get married before I did.

If we talk about waiting for "too long" I think that's a relative term really. People marry when it is either an act of desperation, or the time that G-d appoints as perfect for them.

It really isn't feasable here in Germany to get married until one has made it through college, trade school or university. Because the only jobs you would get are hand-to-mouth (Fast food, janitorial) type jobs. Depending on how skilled you are, and how quickly you can make it through school (which btw you can't work more than a young teen back home in the US while in school/university/college due to laws that make your schooling the priority) - will depend on how well you are set up for starting a family.


If we discuss how people treat others who are virgins getting married, I was rather embarrassed at how people treated me, as if I had absolutely no clue what I was getting into and suddenly needed a quick educational push (and literature!!) before I went down the aisle, oh and had I practiced kissing? and am I SURE I know about where babies come from etc etc..?

It was to the point I AVOIDED conversation unless it related to my health, my upcoming move or the weather. I wasn't stupid or ignorant, I didn't need their book on Kama Sutra or whatever other "helps" they were sure I needed.


But honestly and truly, a good portion of what every child needs to learn is self respect, self control, and how their bodies work as a whole. They need a good basic sexual education from someone, and it's always best that parents have a role in that so that things don't get twisted or mixed up somewhere along the road.. and so that family values are also instilled.


It doesn't just start at puberty either...

 

[LinkH]

Parents need to start behaving themselves. David committed adultery and, form the prophecy given through Nathan and the narrative of scripture, we can see that this unleashed a whole lot of bad stuff in his own family. One of his sons raped his daughter. Another son killed that son. Then that son raped some of David's wives. Then Joab's cousin killed that son in battle.

What can parents do? They can stop watching inappropriate content. They can stop committing adultery. They can stop getting divorce because, "I don't love you any more" or other sinful reasons they need to repent of. We men can take seriously the need to keep our thoughts pure and use our eyes for holy things.

As parents, especially fathers, we can take it onto ourselves to be guardians of our children's virginity. That may mean your child doesn't get to go out on a date in a car alone with a member of the opposite sex. That may mean your daughter doesn't go to the prom with her friends. You have to explain this stuff to them when they are younger, and the reasons behind it, with a clear focus on the fact that the way your family operates is designed to please God and to keep them from falling into temptation.

I liked Luther's post. Children need to be taught to abstain from fornication because this is the will of God for them. They need to be seeking to please God and therefore abstain from sin. I wish someone would have set me down before puberty set in and explained the importance of not looking at a woman to lust after her. Disciplining children on these root cause issues can help them overcome future sins and avoid developing bad habits.

Churches can also enforce church discipline. If a man in the church leaves his wife and is sleeping with his secretary and knows about it, why is he allowed to sit in the pew and take communion in a lot of churches? Why do fornicating young people who profess Christ join our assemblies and partake of communion, especially if we know about it? If a couple is divorcing, why doesn't the church step in and help out instead of taking a passive stance and waiting for the couple to seek counseling? Some churches do. Others don't.

 

[JaneFW]

As parents, especially fathers, we can take it onto ourselves to be guardians of our children's virginity. That may mean your child doesn't get to go out on a date in a car alone with a member of the opposite sex. That may mean your daughter doesn't go to the prom with her friends. You have to explain this stuff to them when they are younger, and the reasons behind it, with a clear focus on the fact that the way your family operates is designed to please God and to keep them from falling into temptation.

That's fine when they are 15, but what about when they can drive themselves?

I can speak as a parent of an adult child, and I can say that at that point, or at any point when your child becomes mobile, or when you allow him/her to go anywhere alone, then they can be having sex at any of those times. It doesn't have to be a car, it doesn't have to be at night, they don't have to be dating. That's why chaperoning only goes so far. And bear in mind, this is the voice of experience not only with two teen sons, but also as a former teen myself. A teen that wants to - will. That's why it's more important to make sure that they have internalized the reason why not to have sex.

Churches can also enforce church discipline. If a man in the church leaves his wife and is sleeping with his secretary and knows about it, why is he allowed to sit in the pew and take communion in a lot of churches? Why do fornicating young people who profess Christ join our assemblies and partake of communion, especially if we know about it? If a couple is divorcing, why doesn't the church step in and help out instead of taking a passive stance and waiting for the couple to seek counseling? Some churches do. Others don't.

As a sinner myself, I would not be in favor of preventing other sinners from taking communion. That teaches works, rather than grace.

 

[JRSut1000]

Doesn't "my house, my rules" still apply even at 18? (If they are living at home with us, once they are gone they are in God's hands and our prayers)

 

[JaneFW]

Doesn't "my house, my rules" still apply even at 18? (If they are living at home with us, once they are gone they are in God's hands and our prayers)

But once they walk out of your door and get in their car, what then? You can't follow them around looking for evidence. He is not allowed to have his g/f overnight, or be alone with her. I explained all this somewhere else on this thread. But what he does when he's in his car with her, or babysitting with her mom's friends .. I have no idea.

And again, that's why it's important to teach your child when they are young, because when they are mobile you cannot "police" them.

 

[JRSut1000]

ITA Jane! Yeah 'control' (for laack of a better word) is a delicate thing because they are adults yet they are still our responsibility yet they can and do make their own choices. I've often wondered how so many times when parents do their best, their kids still end up making huge mistakes no matter how much praying, teaching, encouraging, etc - guess I chalk it all up to personal responsibility in the end.

 

[LinkH]

As a sinner myself, I would not be in favor of preventing other sinners from taking communion. That teaches works, rather than grace.

No it doesn't. It teaches repentance. We aren't saved by our works, but we can repent and confess our sin and get out of immoral situations if we fall into them, by God's grace.

The fleshly people among those Jude and II Peter wrote to were 'spots and blemishes' on the church's love feasts. A Passover lamb (or any sacrifice) was to be without spot or blemish. Peter uses the same phrases more or less to describe Christ as the Lamb without spot or blemish. I Corinthians 5 talks about purging out the old leaven and refers to the Passover before telling the Corinthians not to eat with a man who is a fornicator, etc. You have to eat to partake of communion.

Paul's language about being one lump of dough in I Corinthians 5 is consistent with his reference to the church being one bread in reference to communion in I Corinthians 10.

 

[JaneFW]

No it doesn't. It teaches repentance. We aren't saved by our works, but we can repent and confess our sin and get out of immoral situations if we fall into them, by God's grace.

The fleshly people among those Jude and II Peter wrote to were 'spots and blemishes' on the church's love feasts. A Passover lamb (or any sacrifice) was to be without spot or blemish. Peter uses the same phrases more or less to describe Christ as the Lamb without spot or blemish. I Corinthians 5 talks about purging out the old leaven and refers to the Passover before telling the Corinthians not to eat with a man who is a fornicator, etc. You have to eat to partake of communion.

Paul's language about being one lump of dough in I Corinthians 5 is consistent with his reference to the church being one bread in reference to communion in I Corinthians 10.

I don't believe in cheap grace. If someone truly repents and turns from a certain lifestyle, that's fine, but to confess just for the sake of communion and acceptance into the church, no.

The church is full of sinners. They are all repenting all the time (I imagine, at least I am.) I don't believe that sexual sin is any worse than lying or any other offence. I have to ask myself if anyone else repents of all of their sins before communion, and I don't know. I don't believe that those guilty of sexual sin should be treated any differently to any other sinner.

 

[mkgal1]

Every instance of obedience, from right motives, strengthens us spiritually, whilst every act of disobedience weakens us."~ George Muller

Then each of you will control his own body and live in holiness and honor--1st Thessalonians 4:4

for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.~1st Corinthians 6:20

.

 

[LinkH]

The church is full of sinners. They are all repenting all the time (I imagine, at least I am.) I don't believe that sexual sin is any worse than lying or any other offence. I have to ask myself if anyone else repents of all of their sins before communion, and I don't know. I don't believe that those guilty of sexual sin should be treated any differently to any other sinner.

Paul tells participants in communion to examine themselves. The context is sinning against Christ by sinning by the way they did not discern his body. (Some were eating the food and not waiting for other members of the body to arrive, apparently.)

Paul's instructions 'with such a man, no not to eat' applies to communion as well--especially so considering the wording and metaphors used in the passage which are related to communion and passover. If a believer sins, he or she should confess, repent, and receive forgiveness, and not continue on in the sin.

 

[JaneFW]

Paul tells participants in communion to examine themselves. The context is sinning against Christ by sinning by the way they did not discern his body. (Some were eating the food and not waiting for other members of the body to arrive, apparently.)

Paul's instructions 'with such a man, no not to eat' applies to communion as well--especially so considering the wording and metaphors used in the passage which are related to communion and passover. If a believer sins, he or she should confess, repent, and receive forgiveness, and not continue on in the sin.

And this is what everyone does? We all repent on Sunday and never commit that sin again? Maybe you do that Link, but I believe you would have to be the only perfect person out there.

Anyway, this thread is not about confession and communion, it's about teens and sex.

 

[suzybeezy]

I spoke openly with my kids about premarital sex. I gave them all the information so they'd be prepared. I told them morally why they should wait. I told them spiritually why they should wait. I told them from every angel I could think of the benefits of waiting. Despite my best efforts, I don't think they did. But I couldn't control them, despite my efforts to encourage them properly. Mistakes are made sometimes, and imo this is a big one, but now my focus is on how to get right with God once the mistake is made, to not continue in the sin.

 

[Beauty4Ashes]

I don't think people like waiting for anything in today's culture that's why there is so much fast food and technology. Nor do people like having to put in work when they can do what's easiest, hence the high divorce rate. People rush into marriage because they can't wait to have sex, or don't even wait to begin with then rush out when the going gets tough. It's sad.

 

[Kurama]

Honestly I think a big part of it has been mis-sold.

I think the church likes to fill up the head with worldly reasons to wait and in the end none of them ring true.

For example the very phrase "True love waits" is an example of this. The implication being that both of you will be virgins when you get married and it will be so romantic. When this person gets older and realizes the likelyhood of finding a spouse that is also a virgin is extremely unlikely. . . The romantic fantasies vanish.

STI's and children . . . can be reliably prevented with proper conception. Trying to not acknowledge this ends up making you look even more wrong.

Peer Pressure. . . the whole "virginity" speel is delivered to kids when they are young teens and peer pressure often pushes them to make virginity pledges. They don't want to look bad in front of their peers. . . Plus they don't want to look bad to their parents or their youth pastor. So they commit... A few years later when peer pressure is just the opposite, what can we expect them to do other then to fold to peer pressure?

How its taught to them needs to change.

1. You are doing this because you wish to obey God and you are doing it for yourself. This isn't for me, this isn't for mom and dad, this isn't for your friends. This isn't even for your future spouse. Pledges need to be private between you and God.

2. In a few years this will NOT in any way be popular. There is no over-emphasizing how unpopular this will be. You will without any question or doubt often feel like you are the only virgin. Most of your friends will probably be having sex. But remember why you are doing this. . . for God because you wish to obey him and for yourself... This is for you... Sex is for you, sexual morality is for you... Having sex because everyone else is, is a really dumb reason to be doing it. This is your life, live it for God and beyond that live it for yourself.

3. Your future spouse may or may not be a virgin. Either way it doesn't diminish your marriage. This isn't for the future spouse, who may or may not have done the same thing. This is for you and for God. . . Not for him or her. You are not saving yourself for marriage. . . you are avoiding sex because God said you should only have sex with your spouse... your actual spouse. . . not your long term S.O. Not your fiance. . . your spouse and only your spouse.

4. This has nothing to do with purity. . . Avoiding sex does not make you pure, only Christ makes you pure. However because Christ gave his blood to make you pure, it is good and right that you obey him and his ways. This is one of many ways that you practice such obedience. . . ESPECIALLY when obedience is hard. Obedience to Christ isn't ment to be easy, if it where easy then there would be little point to it all. This is going to be hard, its going to be a practice in fighting your own desires and battling against peer pressure and a culture that tells you to just do what feels good. But what feels good isn't always the best thing.

*Copy, paste, print, stick on bedroom wall*

 

[Purge187]

The sexual urge is a very strong one. Fornication is a sin that, like other sins, some people have a harder time not committing than others.

Speaking for myself, the whole "Don't aardvark before marriage or you'll go to Hell" thing never really worked. Although I accepted Christ as Savior 15 years ago, my faith was built upon a foundation of fear and guilt, qualities that have pretty much tainted my faith ever since.

 

[Uldello]

from CNN: Why young Christians aren't waiting anymore – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

If unmarried Christians aren't waiting, which is the thrust of the article, why aren't they?

One female interviewed said that it seemed like everyone was doing it, so she did it too (had sex). Remembering my own teen years, it was exactly the same. Everyone thought that everyone else was doing it, or some said that they had done it - whether they had or not.

I have a 19yo son that I'm fairly convinced has had sex with his g/f. Unless he has incredible restraint, I don't see how he wouldn't. It's certainly not something I would seek to control, other than as I can when they are in our home, where our son knows he will not be openly sleeping with any girl, ever, unless she is his wife.

The question posed at the end of the article is:

from CNN: Why young Christians aren't waiting anymore – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

If unmarried Christians aren't waiting, which is the thrust of the article, why aren't they?

One female interviewed said that it seemed like everyone was doing it, so she did it too (had sex). Remembering my own teen years, it was exactly the same. Everyone thought that everyone else was doing it, or some said that they had done it - whether they had or not.

I have a 19yo son that I'm fairly convinced has had sex with his g/f. Unless he has incredible restraint, I don't see how he wouldn't. It's certainly not something I would seek to control, other than as I can when they are in our home, where our son knows he will not be openly sleeping with any girl, ever, unless she is his wife.

The question posed at the end of the article is:

Godnis the way for them to wait. One criteria from God is to find a believer. What I mean of a believer is that the couple must be rooted in Christ. The yield into sin because of lack of knowledge and wisdom. I don't want to offend anyone but Gods word is pure. 1 Cor. 7:1. That knly a short reply. Godbless

 

[Ana the Ist]

from CNN: Why young Christians aren't waiting anymore – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

If unmarried Christians aren't waiting, which
is the thrust of the article, why aren't they?

One female interviewed said that it seemed like everyone was doing it, so she did it too (had sex). Remembering my own teen years, it was exactly the same. Everyone thought that everyone else was doing it, or some said that they had done it - whether they had or not.

I have a 19yo son that I'm fairly convinced has had sex with his g/f. Unless he has incredible restraint, I don't see how he wouldn't. It's certainly not something I would seek to control, other than as I can when they are in our home, where our son knows he will not be openly sleeping with any girl, ever, unless she is his wife.

The question posed at the end of the article is:

I think it's more important to stress being sexually responsible...using protection and not engaging in potentially dangerous/predatory behavior liking drinking and having sex.

I understand that I'm probably in the minority here...but I don't see any benefits to waiting until marriage. In fact, I see a lot of pitfalls with that decision...and I imagine a lot of youngsters do too. Aside from learning that you're not really sexually compatible with your partner and it putting an incredible burden upon your marriage...there's also the possibility of rushing into marriage out of sexual desire instead of more important things. Yes, getting stds and pre-marital pregnancy are a risk...but again, that's why I would stress being responsible over being abstinent.

In decades past...their was a societal expectation and shame factor that was inherent in pre marital sex. Girls who did it were shamed....and guys were too, albeit probably to a lesser extent. The idea of everyone in your social group looking down on you probably kept pre marital sexual behavior to a minimum.

Nowadays, that societal pressure is gone. It's far too common for anyone to really be ashamed of it. You can lay the blame for that in a lot of places if you see it as a change for the worse...personally, I don't think it's a good thing to stigmatize sexual behavior. Personal opinions on the morality of it don't change reality though...more and more teens do it, and probably will continue to do so. All one can really do is try to make sure they're responsible when they do.

Case in point...I was in the drive through at Wendy's a couple of months ago to pick up some nuggets for my wife whom I was driving home to. I placed my order, heard some giggles from the girl at the drive through window, and pulled up to receive my order. I noticed some odd behavior, two other girls peeking around the corner at me through the window and the girl at the window seemed embarrassed. Before I drove off, one of the girls working told me that "the name of the girl who took my order was written along with her number on the receipt". This girl had to be between 17-19...almost 20 years younger than myself. I didn't want to embarrass her, so I held up my ring finger and told her I was flattered but married. Then as I drove away I thought...

1. Gross. This girl wasn't even a glimmer in her dad's eye when I was out drinking my late teens away.

2. There's no way she couldn't have realized I'm far too old for her....even if she suspected I was single.

3. What the hell is wrong with girls these days? I didn't get that much attention from girls her age when I was her age. What in the world did her parents teach her about sex?

So the moral of this post is....teach your kids to be sexually responsible, before someone slightly less scrupulous than myself has sex with them.

Merry Christmas.