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True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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ToBeLoved

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How quickly you forget the Holy SPirit who convicts us of our sin. Of course we forgive, the Holy Spirit indwells us so we realize that. The Holy Spirit also convicts us of the sin of hate. We know that it is not our Lord;s will because His Word is written on our hearts. We have the mind of Christ and His indwelling Holy Spirit.

No one forgiven by Jesus Christ is unrighteouss. The Word says "He cleanses US from ALL unrighteousness".

So the unrighteouss are those who are not one of CHrist's own.
 
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ToBeLoved

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That is what I said. Temporarily attoned for.

Please read it again.

So, what did Jesus leave us with the Holy Spirit for? Why did Jesus write His Word on our hearts? Why were we given the mind of CHrist?

All you can talk about is sin. But Jesus gave us many things to help us with our sin. He even goes so far as to forgive our sin and cleanse us from unrigteousness.

So why did He bother?

Your sin is everything to you. God did a little, you do a lot.

God is Joe LumpLump and you are saving yourself from spiritual death.

I see. I see.
 
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But you believe a person will never stop sinning, though, right?
Do you not also believe that a person can abide in unrepentant sin for extended period of time and still be saved during the time they are being unrighteous? If so, how can God be a party to their sin or their lack of remorse over their sin? For if such were the case, then everyone would be saved.

Also, does everyone respond always to the Spirit convicting them of their sin? The Israelites perished in the wilderness because they constantly resisted the Holy Ghost.


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That is what I said. Temporarily attoned for.
....I meant temporarily atoned for.... PAST sin. Not future sin. I realize that you think it is temporary. We disagree that it was only a covering for past sin because you believe Jesus covers you of future sin.


So, what did Jesus leave us with the Holy Spirit for?

There are many reasons we are given the Holy Spirit. Receiving the Spirit is a confirmation of the seal of approval of the salvation we have in Christ. We also receive gifts of the Spirit. There are also fruits of the Spirit. But I believe all three members of the Godhead live in a believer. Not just on person of the Godhead or the Trinity. There are verses that say that the Father and the Son also live within us, too. For we do worship one God.


Again, I do not think salvation is anything that I do. I said salvation is in what Christ does. Christ saves us both in Justification and or in Sanctification. So there is no boasting in me doing anything to save myself because I believe it is Christ working in me.

But I do see "sin" as a threat because the Bible does and life teaches us that it is a threat or problem, as well. The fact that you do not see it is a problem is of great concern to the Lord, God's Word and to me.



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ToBeLoved

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I'm putting your question with my answers below.

But you believe a person will never stop sinning, though, right?


I believe that it is highly improbable, but not impossible. Someone would have to be so spiritually in tune with God and be able to willfully cut out most of this life from their conscience.

Do you not also believe that a person can abide in unrepentant sin for extended period of time and still be saved during the time they are being unrighteous?


Sin will naturally pull us away from God. It is in our benefit not to sin because besides being unGodly, there are penalties for sin in our own lives. Not penalties caused by God but natuaral penalties that come from sin. So it is our best interest not to sin if we want to remain close to God (here is where the love for God comes in. When one loves God they do not want to sin and be further from Him). Sin is the obstacle to our moving forward in sanctification (which is becoming more like Christ). Sin doesn't hurt God, per se. Sin only hurts God because He is making us like Himself (sanctification) and He wants us to be a light to the world. We are His servants and in order to serve successfully we need to be like Christ. That is our testimony.

Like a father, if my child runs into the 8 foot deep pool am I worried for myself? No, I am worried for the child because harm will come to them and I love them and want to see no harm come to them. Sin is similiar in the way that it does not effect God, per se. But it effects us and God loves us.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Do you not also believe that a person can abide in unrepentant sin for extended period of time and still be saved during the time they are being unrighteous? If so, how can God be a party to their sin or their lack of remorse over their sin?

Because Christ already died for our sin. It is finished.

God wants us to repent not so He can forgive our sin. God does not need us to repent to forgive our sin.

God wants us to repent so we 'turn away from our sin'. Because 'repentence' does not be admitting to, repentance means to turn from, to turn away. So repentance is what we need to do to come to that realization about our sin and ourself.

God does NOT need it, we need it.

For if such were the case, then everyone would be saved.


No, because we are saved through faith. So there needs to be that element of faith.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Also, does everyone respond always to the Spirit convicting them of their sin?

No of course not. Many, many people ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit. But that is not my problem. Each of us has the Word.

The Israelites perished in the wilderness because they constantly resisted the Holy Ghost.


The Israelite's did not have the Holy Ghost, not indwelling them. The Israelite's had the Law under the Old Covenant.

The Holy Spirit is given with the atonement by the blood of Jesus Christ and is the New Covenant.
 
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Yes, I understand that you believe sin causes a break in fellowship with God but you do not think it effects salvation in any way. I have encountered your belief before. It is not new for me. Neither can I find any support in Scripture for such a belief, either.

As a matter of fact, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

As for your claim that sin does not hurt God: Well, that is not exactly true according to the Bible.

For what in the world do you think this passage says?

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord repented that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him in His heart." (Genesis 6:5-6).


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ToBeLoved

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These verses do not prove anything in regards to salvation because the little piece that you left out is that the Holy Spirit does convict us of sin and we repent. We do not stay out of fellowship with God at all.
 
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These verses do not prove anything in regards to salvation because the little piece that you left out is that the Holy Spirit does convict us of sin and we repent. We do not stay out of fellowship with God at all.

No. Read Romans 11:21-22 again. It does not make any sense to tell us (believers) to CONTINUE in his goodness if that is what is going to automatically happen anyways for the believer. In fact, it says that if we do not continue in his goodness we can be cut off just like the Jews. Read it again.

For did you re-read these verses extra slow in what they say? Did you bother to re-read any of the chapters again for these verses to make sure you are getting the proper understanding in what the verse is saying in light of the surrounding passages? I know you might have read these chapters before from your perspective in what you believe, but I am asking you to not see what you want to see and just read at least one of two of the chapters for these verses from an objective viewpoint. For when I read them, it means what it says very plainly. I just do not see your belief being true in light of reading Romans 11:21-22. It says we can be cut off just like the Jews. How do you change what it says plainly in that verse? For me, it is clear in what it says.


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The Israelite's did not have the Holy Ghost, not indwelling them. The Israelite's had the Law under the Old Covenant.

The Holy Spirit is given with the atonement by the blood of Jesus Christ and is the New Covenant.
Did you believe that because that is what your church says or do you believe that because you did a personal indepth study on the matter yourself by prayer and extensive research? I say this because truth is not taught by a church group but truth is taught by the Spirit.


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Passages to consider:

"But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?" (Isaiah 63:10-11).

"Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." (1 Peter 1:11).

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit." (Psalm 51:10-12).

"For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15).


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stuart lawrence

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U Still watering down the law of God I see Jason, so you can proclaim you are doing rather well
It is such a weak message of:
I don't get drunk, smoke, use foul language or have extra marital affairs etc. You need to be where I am.
The Pharisees of Jesus day would have passed all those tests with flying colours and many more besides but Jesus wasn't impressed. It was self seeking of praise from others while they could not live up to what they demanded of others, on the inside.
There was no love or grace in their message you see
 
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First, again, that would be a lie. They did not pass the moral laws of God with flying colors. Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like justice, mercy, and faith.

Second, where am I watering down God’s laws?

Third, how exacty does your obedience to God's Commands in the New Testament measure up with your belief? How is that working out for you? Can you say you do not habitually abide in unrepentant sin that leads to spiritual death? These would be sins like lying, hate, sexual immorality, etc.


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stuart lawrence

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Well I don't think you have passed lying by accusing me of lying in the above. Once again you happily do not tell the truth of what I wrote while insisting you obey Gods laws. As I said you water the standard down of those laws to what you are comfortable with
Show me where I stated the Pharisees passed the moral laws of God with flying colours. I stated they would have passed not getting drunk, using foul language, having extra marital affairs and a lot more besides. I DID NOT say they passed the moral laws of God with flying colours, but some laws they defibately passed with flying colours. But doubtless you will excuse yet again your not being truthful about what I have written while insisting the highest standards of obedience from everyone else
 
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stuart lawrence

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I It is my belief I would be more aggrieved by sin in my heart than you would jason
 
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The things you listed are moral laws.


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It is my belief I would be more aggrieved by sin in my heart than you would jason
With the attitude you have towards my promoting of God's New Testament Commands and how you believe that one can get away with dying in unrepentant sin in certain cases, I find that hard to believe. True Godly sorrow is defined for you in 2 Corinthians 7:10.


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stuart lawrence

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The things you listed are moral laws

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Thank you for proving me right Jason. I never said they obeyed the moral laws with flying colours. It is obvious once again you are trying to mislead people according to what I wrote. I mentioned three moral laws.
You make my point well. You demand the highest standards of obedience from others while continuously excusing yourself when you fail to be honest concerning what others write
I am 57 I have continuously seen in life over decades those who most insist others strictly observe the letter fail the most to observe the letter themselves. You simply bear that truth out
 
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stuart lawrence

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Oh I am sure it is true Jason. I have many years more than you do to draw on personal experience of what I have seen.
You have shown in these debates you are not at all concerned at twisting and distorting what others write. That alone proves me correct. And i am not the only one who notices you do this
 
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