• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Featured True Disciples Persevere

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Oct 19, 2018.

  1. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

    +5,597
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    True disciples cannot fall away from Jesus. They persevere. This, at least, was the teaching of Jesus who said:

    "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:31-32)

    This would imply that those who do not abide in his word were not truly his disciples, even though they may appear to be for a time. To abide in Jesus' word in John's gospel means to continue in the faith.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,164
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    That sounds like a chicken or the egg proposition.

    Do true disciples persevere, or are those who persevere true disciples.

    What becomes of those disciples who do not persevere?
     
  3. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

    +911
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    They lose rewards, cause the HS within to grieve, lack righteousness that is a protection of the heart, which brings me to the conclusion I'd rather be a chicken than a dead roster ;)
     
  4. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

    +5,597
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    Yes.

    Jesus says that those who persevere are truly his disciples. This would mean that those who don't persevere were not truly his disciples.
     
  5. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

    +3,201
    United States
    Catholic
    Celibate
    If we were true disciples all the time, we would have no need to repent of our sins because we would never fall into sin in the first place. We succeed, we fail, and we get back up.
     
  6. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

    +1,544
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    Jesus' sheep follow the sound of His voice and He will never lead them astray. We persevere as we are preserved.

    John 10:27-29
    My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
     
  7. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

    +8,489
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    AMEN! Because true disciples have been born again; the old man is dead.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  8. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

    +911
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    Very recently I felt all of those losses and it was very painful. My experience has been similar to the book of Songs. Often He will remove His Presence but when He returns He shows His delight in His garden, almost surprised that grace has been so orderly in producing fruit fit for Him. Even when I don't feel it but somehow He points to it and I see the work accomplished too. I don’t think turning away is ever an option for His disciples. Like His first disciples, whether with Him or not, there’s really no where else to go because He's the only One with the words of eternal life.
     
  9. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

    +8,489
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    Was St. Paul perfect? Did he endure?

    Romans 7:23
    But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    Philippians 1:6
    Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    1 Corinthians 1:8
    Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    God didn't give us the new birth to send us back to Satan; He delivered us from the power of Satan.
     
  10. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

    +8,489
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    I don't agree that God ever abandons us.

    Philippians 2:13
    For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
     
  11. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

    +1,947
    Christian
    It's much along the same lines as 1John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
     
  12. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

    +1,544
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    Although the Vinedressers' pruning is often a very hard cup to drink, it is oh so rewarding!
    Hebrews 12:11
    For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
     
  13. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

    +911
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    Didn't say He ever does abandon. Just said that sometimes I can feel His Presence and other times not so much. Imo that's part of His discipline for those He loves. Drawing away from God is easy on our part, we can break fellowship very easily, but once known that we have done so puts it on us to get right again. My problem was I wanted Him to see things my way and He rectified that by bringing me back to seeing it His way. (edit to add that His way is reality=truth) (and away from the lies I'd been trying to convinced Him of) ( away from from idols to turn to the living God) (that was work on my part too) Just part of my daily journey for the most part.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Note that Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that Christians are robots. For if Christians cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved because no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

    But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if, after he became a Christian, he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6), and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy-times-seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin, and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

    Note that they can. For Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

    One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

    Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

    This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

    John 8:31 . . . If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed . . .

    Note that John 8:31 does not say or require "continue unto the end", for Christians can continue in Jesus Christ's Word for awhile, but then later fall away (Hebrews 6:4-8).

    Compare the sower parable (Luke 8:4-15), in which the last three types of people all received God's Word and came into true Christian faith. But the one who came into faith on stony ground believed for awhile, but subsequently committed apostasy (Luke 8:13; cf. 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), which ultimately results in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b). The one who came into faith on weed-choked ground subsequently neglected to patiently continue in good works, neglected to bear fruit to perfection (Luke 8:14, Colossians 1:10, Revelation 3:1b-2). And the one who came into faith on good ground subsequently brought forth fruit with patience (Luke 8:15), which is required for Christians to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, James 2:24), and not to ultimately lose their salvation (John 15:2a,6, Matthew 25:26,30).

    Matthew 13:23 and Mark 4:8 mean that the thirty, sixty, and hundredfold fruit applies only to that fruit brought forth by the Christians on good ground.
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Amen.

    John 10:28-29 means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

    Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

    *******

    It is sometimes claimed that 1 John 2:19 requires the Calvinist doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance.

    But 1 John 2:19 does not require that apostate Christians were never real Christians, but can mean that apostate Christians were never of the overcomers to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). Real Christians, who have their names written in the Book of Life, can have their names blotted out if they fail to overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). People can really believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel only for awhile, before at some point wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

    1 John 2:18-19 can refer to Christians who eventually became Gnostic Christians (cf. 2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3), and so left the Church because of its continued (and correct) insistence that Christ is in the flesh (Luke 24:39).
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Amen.

    Philippians 1:6 and 1 Corinthians 1:8 do mean that God will complete the work which He has begun in Christians. But other passages show that He will do this only if they continue to cooperate with Him, work along with Him (1 Corinthians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12, Philippians 3:12-14), and do not wrongly employ their free will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

    But God still gives us free will.

    Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    *******

    Are you thinking of Hebrews 13:5b? If so, note that it applies to Christians only if they remain faithful to Jesus Christ. For "if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12b).

    Amen.

    But note that while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).
     
  17. Wolf_Says

    Wolf_Says Well-Known Member

    644
    +312
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    While your posts have been good, you are forgetting the fact that Calvinists and Reformed don't believe in Man's "Free Will" ability to reject God's Grace or fall away. This is their doctrine of Irresistible Grace.

    The entire Reformed theology just confounds me, to be honest.

    And to those saying "true disciples will never fall away", why the need for John 15:1-10 then?
     
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Their doctrine is right, but only with regard to the initial salvation of elect individuals, not their ultimate salvation.

    That is, the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

    Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot comprehend the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can comprehend it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

    Nonelect people can never believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect individuals (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians, so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

    Indeed.

    For example, John 15:2a refers to true Christians, who are truly branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

    True Christians can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus Christ, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not continuing to abide in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
     
  19. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

    +911
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    I think too that most denominations have no idea what rewards are and so deem gaining and losing rewards as referring to salvation.
     
  20. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

    +911
    Canada
    Christian
    Private
    Here's a for instance
    The Lost Coin
     
Loading...