Troubling bible verses

[ChicagoCubs1990]

Do you find the bible helpful? There are certain things about the bible I have a tough time with, take for example the following verses. Moses speaks to his troops after a battle in which they won, " Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:17-18. I'm very troubled by this verse. As it would mean Moses raped little girls and killed a bunch of little boys.

I have issue with another verse directly from the mouth of God(Yahweh). When Yahweh is commanding Moses to write his words, he says the following, " Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod they must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." -Exodus 21:20-21. Clearly, Yahweh, the one who brought the Israelites out of slavery doesn't mind them being slave masters themselves.

Jesus supports Mosaic Law. Jesus was obsessed with helping Jewish prostitutes when he could have helped starving non-Jews in Egypt. Jesus says, " I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel.' -Matthew 19:24. I think I may have lost my soul. The Jews are only 14 million people and they denied him. Jesus loved God more than he loved Man. As evidenced when he called Peter by Satan for only caring for Jesus' well-being. Apparently, Man is not meant to an equal to Yahweh. Jews can have slaves, they are called the Jesus-Gentile(Christian). I'm Catholic, but I'm having a hard time.

If this gets deleted I'll post it in the morality section. I am a Christian. I'm just having a rough time understanding the evil of men and God. It does concern scripture which is why I posted here.

 

[drjean]

Please don't be troubled. The depth of all the Scriptures is far more than one can imagine. I have experienced questions and answers and understanding as I have moved through my Christian journey of 51 years now.

It's very important to understand the background information regarding any particular verse, and work at comparing Scripture with Scripture (especially in the NT.)

We cannot evaluate things looking at a modern lifestyle and understanding. I don't plan to expound completely on anything you've questioned here, but consider looking deeper into things. Some of those things are whether God had given any marriage laws yet, what the plight of those who were against God and why God would not want them to procreate or any of their idols to be kept in the Hebrew camps.... how old did the average person live to be, at what age did they mature. Think about the wisdom and actions of say, David, and the age at which he did things.

Jesus, prior to the resurrection, did only come to save the Jews. But though He gave them time right up to His crucifixion, they rejected Him. After the resurrection, the Gospel of salvation as we know it, was given to all. This emphasis upon Jews turned to also Gentiles with "Paul's" gospel of Jesus (came about by his being trained by Jesus in the desert for 3 years---)

There are acceptable answers for you, truthful ones from God, I believe.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[com7fy8]

Do you find the bible helpful?

Yes. Any part of the scripture can help me to find out better how to love, including how to please God and share with Him while sharing as family with His people, while also reaching out to sinners.

Moses speaks to his troops after a battle in which they won, " Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:17-18. I'm very troubled by this verse. As it would mean Moses raped little girls and killed a bunch of little boys.

First, this is in what both Jews and Christians consider to be Canon Scripture, which means Jews and Christians consider this to be infallible.

But, of course, is our understanding of it . . . infallible?

First > a general principle I have for God's word is I need to not right away think up some problem with something it says. And it is not wise to criticize and accuse God.

One basic I get from this quote of yours is I need to have compassion on any and all people. If ones who are enemies of the Jews could be counted worth killing . . . even their children . . . this means that people without God are in a major mess . . . even their young ones. So, I need to have compassion for any and all people who are without God, and pray with hope for them to be saved and however God would bless them, in any case.

My personal take about your issues about this scripture are that if God could order the slaughter of little boys, then He knew how they really were. Also, He would do the right thing with them after they died. And if they had been children brought up by evil people, they could be a risk to the Jews. Even an unborn child is already a seed of who that person eventually will become. And we are warned that all have been born in sin. There is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2) > this is Satan's spirit, which can spread from parents to even their unborn children, through conception . . . to my knowledge. So, accusing God is not the answer, if this is true. We need to pray with hope of God changing children out of the evil spirit of selfishness and foolishness and rebellion so they can become deeply sound in unselfish love and gentle and humble ways of relating and caring about others as much as they care about their own selves. I think you can see if this is the norm for children growing up, or if they need to be rescued from selfish and therefore evil-spirited stuff in them. And because those virgins were brought up by evil people, they could readily be won over to the Jews, by how they would have been loved and cared for as family and not just used and abused. So, I offer it is not wise to call that "rape". There were evil people who wanted to even wipe out the Jews; while they needed water while on their way to their land, enemy peoples refused them water. God could have ordered the Jews to just wipe all those people out. But for His purposes, overall, He at times directed different ways of dealing with people. And in the long run He knew Jesus would die on the cross for any and all people; this would make it a priority, now, for God to keep even His worst enemies alive so they might trust in Jesus. But at that time the priority was to keep the Jews alive as a people, without corruption by enemy people, so there could be a continual line genealogical to Jesus, so there would be a Jewish people through whom Jesus could come.

So . . . welcome to Christian Forums

 

[Anto9us]

I think I may have lost my soul.

That is the MOST troubling thing you said, ChiCubs -- all of us wrestle with some of the verses you mention, I'm sure.

Males were slaughtered, virgins were kept not to be raped but to become wives.

Many male babies Christ's own age were killed -- it's sad and I don't know how to resolve it.

Bible is not easy to reconcile to our satisfaction at times.

These questions do not indicate that you have lost your soul.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Do you find the bible helpful? There are certain things about the bible I have a tough time with, take for example the following verses. Moses speaks to his troops after a battle in which they won, " Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:17-18. I'm very troubled by this verse. As it would mean Moses raped little girls and killed a bunch of little boys.

I have issue with another verse directly from the mouth of God(Yahweh). When Yahweh is commanding Moses to write his words, he says the following, " Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod they must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." -Exodus 21:20-21. Clearly, Yahweh, the one who brought the Israelites out of slavery doesn't mind them being slave masters themselves.

Jesus supports Mosaic Law. Jesus was obsessed with helping Jewish prostitutes when he could have helped starving non-Jews in Egypt. Jesus says, " I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel.' -Matthew 19:24. I think I may have lost my soul. The Jews are only 14 million people and they denied him. Jesus loved God more than he loved Man. As evidenced when he called Peter by Satan for only caring for Jesus' well-being. Apparently, Man is not meant to an equal to Yahweh. Jews can have slaves, they are called the Jesus-Gentile(Christian). I'm Catholic, but I'm having a hard time.

If this gets deleted I'll post it in the morality section. I am a Christian. I'm just having a rough time understanding the evil of men and God. It does concern scripture which is why I posted here.

I am not smart enough to be God’s critic.How about you? I am quite confident there will come a time when we understand that God’s perceived “evil” was due to our ignorance.The God that endured the cruelest torture imaginable for wretched , undeserving sinners like you and I deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt, don’t you think?

 

[ChicagoCubs1990]

I am not smart enough to be God’s critic.How about you? I am quite confident there will come a time when we understand that God’s perceived “evil” was due to our ignorance.The God that endured the cruelest torture imaginable for wretched , undeserving sinners like you and I deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt, don’t you think?

Yahweh sounds like an angry God, I wouldn't want to mess with him. I certainly don't understand him. How about you?

 

[Halbhh]

Do you find the bible helpful? There are certain things about the bible I have a tough time with, take for example the following verses. Moses speaks to his troops after a battle in which they won, " Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:17-18. I'm very troubled by this verse. As it would mean Moses raped little girls and killed a bunch of little boys.

I have issue with another verse directly from the mouth of God(Yahweh). When Yahweh is commanding Moses to write his words, he says the following, " Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod they must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." -Exodus 21:20-21. Clearly, Yahweh, the one who brought the Israelites out of slavery doesn't mind them being slave masters themselves.

Jesus supports Mosaic Law. Jesus was obsessed with helping Jewish prostitutes when he could have helped starving non-Jews in Egypt. Jesus says, " I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel.' -Matthew 19:24. I think I may have lost my soul. The Jews are only 14 million people and they denied him. Jesus loved God more than he loved Man. As evidenced when he called Peter by Satan for only caring for Jesus' well-being. Apparently, Man is not meant to an equal to Yahweh. Jews can have slaves, they are called the Jesus-Gentile(Christian). I'm Catholic, but I'm having a hard time.

If this gets deleted I'll post it in the morality section. I am a Christian. I'm just having a rough time understanding the evil of men and God. It does concern scripture which is why I posted here.

There isn't a way to guess correctly about the meaning and import of a verse isolated away from the situation that created the outcome seen in an individual verse.

Without full reading through these entire books one is guessing wrong often. The first five books of the Bible being a group together -- and often for some things in these even later books are required, such as for instance the real reasons in full of why Sodom was destroyed in Genesis 19 is only revealed fully only later in Ezekiel chapter 16!

All sorts of things cannot be understood without that extensive reading, I've found, and can be with it. It's not even enough to give a brief summary, because it's like arriving at a war without enough feeling of the reasons for the war.

Even the less complex situation behind the Flood can't be understood without some careful reading of certain verses in Genesis chapter 6 which are not the result itself, but the real reasons (here especially one needs to consider the full wordings of verse 5 and 11 as I recall, actually noticing the exact wording in precision).

How can you find such things as Deu 12:31, and then really know the significance, unless you read?

So, not only is there no way to guess correctly about the meaning/import of a verse away from the situation that created the outcome shown in the verse. More: even a correct answer given isn't really equal to having appreciated the full situation through comitted reading. With a mere answer, practically it's just an abstraction -- how could you know it's right?

What we really need is to actually care enough to read from chapter 1, verse 1, continuing, fully, through book after book, if we want to understand these things. How could humans do enough evil at a profound enough level that a whole city should be sent on to the coming Day of Judgement? Questions like this, and other things far more encouraging and also good -- all are there, waiting for you.

 

[ChicagoCubs1990]

There isn't a way to guess correctly about the meaning and import of a verse isolated away from the situation that created the outcome seen in an individual verse.

Without full reading through these entire books one is guessing wrong often. The first five books of the Bible being a group together -- and often for some things in these even later books are required, such as for instance the real reasons in full of why Sodom was destroyed in Genesis 19 is only revealed fully only later in Ezekiel chapter 16!

All sorts of things cannot be understood without that extensive reading, I've found, and can be with it. It's not even enough to give a brief summary, because it's like arriving at a war without enough feeling of the reasons for the war.

Even the less complex situation behind the Flood can't be understood without some careful reading of certain verses in Genesis chapter 6 which are not the result itself, but the real reasons (here especially one needs to consider the full wordings of verse 5 and 11 as I recall).

How can you find such things as Deu 12:31, and then really know the significance, unless you read?

So, not only is there no way to guess correctly about the meaning/import of a verse away from the situation that created the outcome shown in the verse. More: even a correct answer given isn't really equal to having appreciated the full situation through comitted reading. With a mere answer, a mere abstraction, and how could you know it's right? What we really need is to actually care enough to read from chapter 1, verse 1, continuing, fully, through book after book, if we want to understand these things. How could humans do enough evil at a profound enough level that a whole city should be sent on to the coming Day of Judgement? Questions like this, and other things far more encouraging and also good -- all are there, waiting for you.

I've read the Torah in its entirety. I've also read the Ethiopian orthodox bible Enoch 1 so I know why the flood happened.

 

[Halbhh]

I've read the Torah in its entirety. I've also read the Ethiopian orthodox bible Enoch 1 so I know why the flood happened.

I'm not familiar with what precisely is in the Torah, as compared to the Common Bible. But the general things I wrote above are really true I noticed. Can we really appreciate something like how many cities in Canaan were so evil (how, why, precisely?) without various pieces in so many books, like I think more than 8 books at least. Deu 12:31 is one important key, but also only one among several parts that help explain, but giving those key pieces isn't enough without that total reading through, I feel, because it's too abstract with just an isolated verse I feel.

 

[ChicagoCubs1990]

I am not smart enough to be God’s critic.How about you? I am quite confident there will come a time when we understand that God’s perceived “evil” was due to our ignorance.The God that endured the cruelest torture imaginable for wretched , undeserving sinners like you and I deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt, don’t you think?

Sorry I guess I was being arrogant. But, I don't understand God at all and I am deathly afraid of him.

 

[Halbhh]

If ones who are enemies of the Jews could be counted worth killing . . . even their children . . . this means that people without God are in a major mess . . . even their young ones.

I tried to answer that one partly, though I emphasized the need to read very fully, to arrive at more than only a mere abstract answer, still it can help a lot to rememer addtionally that children who die are in some partial or large innocence in relation to Romans ch 2, v6-16, 4:15, 5:13, and from Paul we can then see from these that they will generally gain Life eternal or some significant mercy from God. (even before one considers such as 1 Pet 3:18-20). So, the question is really how can a city be so extremely wicked that it's best to utterly wipe it out and send even 100% of all the people on to the coming Day of Judgment? And I tried to point to one key part of the answer (mentioning Deu 12:31), but I hope I convey that to really understand, we all must just have the commitment to pretty much read through all the OT, and that's months for a person like me, months, which means I have to somehow really want to, and I do, because it is so very rich and full of unexpected gems, of overwhelming delight and value, like arriving, if one is reading fully, finally arriving in the mid sections of the book of Job at his most amazing moment of them all, one of the most high in the Bible. How could one find this, experience it, except starting from chapter 1 verse 1? There really is no way to arrive at that profound good, which helps us so much, without that total reading. I hope I'm not overdoing it here! Thanks if you read this much!

 

[DavidFirth]

Sorry I guess I was being arrogant. But, I don't understand God at all and I am deathly afraid of him.

Have you talked to your priest or a priest about this?

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Sorry I guess I was being arrogant. But, I don't understand God at all and I am deathly afraid of him.

Your honesty is not arrogance.If you are not saved you are extremely wise to be afraid.If you want to be saved,say this from your heart.....” Lord Jesus , have mercy on me a sinner”....... simple as that .Jesus will show you mercy and see to it that you are saved.Paul said if you simply believe his Gospel delivered unto him by Jesus,you WILL be saved. 1cor15:1-4. God will put His Spirit in you and you will FIND yourself doing the things that please Him. Your present state should make it obvious that your church has been of no value to you.Get out.Get a Bible you can easily understand and read Romans And Galations.You can be saved and know you will not lose your salvation—-RUN from those Gospel perverters that say otherwise. God bless....I will be praying for you

 

[ChicagoCubs1990]

Have you talked to your priest or a priest about this?

Yes and no, I've had issues. Maybe I should bring it up again. Moses was not perfect. Neither was David or Solomon or Job. Jesus and Mary have always been perfect. Jesus is the creator and Mary is the Queen of Heaven. As a Catholic, I believe Mary was the only other person in history to have lived a sinless life on earth. But, Mary being a feminine being could not bear the full burden of sin unlike her son who could and did.

 

[seventysevens]

I believe Mary was the only other person in history to have lived a sinless life on earth. But, Mary being a feminine being could not bear the full burden of sin unlike her son who could and did.

The bible tells us that "ALL have sinned" scripture does not speak to every minute of every day of a persons life , even one sin of telling a false hood , or getting angry and saying something hateful is a sin , even IF Mary could have lived a sinless life -which is impossible - being born into sin as a result of Adam-Eve sins is something no one can prevent. Mary did not live a sinless life - Only Jesus has accomplished that and Only Because he is the Almighty incarnate into the flesh for the purpose to bear the sins of everyone else to provide the way into eternal life .

 

[Halbhh]

Moses speaks to his troops after a battle in which they won, " Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:17-18. I'm very troubled by this verse. As it would mean ...

Though I was answering (in part) above already about how a city could be so evil that it should be wiped out and all or most all sent on to the Day of Judgement, in the afterlife to be sorted the guilty from the innocent there....

The innocent who died likely to gain eternal Life generally, as I illustrated from Romans above.

But, I think it would help to address the other part you are asking about how it's fair to the survivor virgins, who are being taken into Israel in this verse!

The virgins were not 'raped' actually as we think of it today at all.

It's something much more like chosen among and accepted in instead of left to starve and die in an empty city, where they'd be defenseless and pretty helpless.

This answer of another Catholic I read a few months ago on this is quite helpful and good --
Why didn't God ban slavery outright instead of creating laws to regulate it?
(be sure to read far enough to get to that part:
"Now consider the particular plight of female captives of war or slaves purchased from other. Think of THEIR usual fate. Now notice what God did instead. Female captives are slaves. If you're an Israelite, you cannot rape your slaves." ...continues...)

Further, even as a captured or surviving virgin taken to be a wife, she would have some specific rights(!)...certain protection, given under Law from the Lord:
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 21:10-14 - New International Version

 

[ChicagoCubs1990]

The bible tells us that "ALL have sinned" scripture does not speak to every minute of every day of a persons life , even one sin of telling a false hood , or getting angry and saying something hateful is a sin , even IF Mary could have lived a sinless life -which is impossible - being born into sin as a result of Adam-Eve sins is something no one can prevent. Mary did not live a sinless life - Only Jesus has accomplished that and Only Because he is the Almighty incarnate into the flesh for the purpose to bear the sins of everyone else to provide the way into eternal life .

That is not what 1.3 billion Papal Catholics and 275 million Eastern Orthodox Catholics and 85 million Oriental Orthodox Christians Believe. Mary does not have Original Sin unlike the rest of humanity. She was a perfect feminine being. Only a masculine being like Christ could carry the cross.

 

[sunshineforJesus]

I've always had a problem with the bible verse,If anyone wants to follow me and
hates not his mother or father or even his own life He isn't fit to follow me.I could never hate my parents.