Trinity or Godhead

[Tawhano]

Ammon said:
In common with the rest of Christianity, we believe in a Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. However, we testify that these three members of the Godhead are three separate and distinct beings.

How does the CoJCoLDS reconcile these three verses if God and Jesus are two separate personages?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 14:9)
9 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, who created the heavens and the earth, a light which cannot be hid in darkness;

(Book of Mormon | Mormon 9:11)
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

well I don't.
quote, "3 distinct or individual persons but have (share) the same being "
Isn't that like multiple personalitys? Or perhaps 3 sprir beings in one physical body? Or 3 spirit beings in one spirit being? or 3 spirit beings sharing one spirit being body? when you share something you let one person have whatever your sharing and you dont have it when the other person is using it. so if one person is using the spirit body , then what are the other two doing? waiting their turn?
Really,what your statement is is just a restating of the problem 3 apples are one apple.

What is impossible for man, is not impossible for God. Just because you don't think God is One God made up of 3 distinct persons, does not mean he isn't. The concept of the trinity is found throughout the Word of God. From what you stated above, it sounds like you think that I beleive they share the same body? I never said that, nor do I believe that. I believe, just like I stated, that they are 3 persons but still one God because they have or share the same being or essence. They do not share the same physical body. God the Father is spirit.

Grace

 

[happyinhisgrace]

if we as christians are ever going to be able to witness to muslims , we are going to have to give up our illogical theological doctrines that come out of the dark ages.

why? says who? Many muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc. have come to Christ and now believe in the triune God. God had no problem using trinitarian believers to bring many of those people to Christ.

I will never give up the "theological" docterine of the trinune God because it did not come out of the dark ages, it is found all throughout scripture and I believe it to be truth. I do not find it illogical at all. It is unfortunate that you think as much but still, it is your choice. So be it.

Grace

 

[Lotar]

This is both a sad and funny thread.

If you are going to attack the Morman beliefs concerning the Trinity, you should at least make sure you understand it yourselves. Half of you are professing to be monophysites. Go back and read the Athanasian Creed, all other beliefs are heresy.

The Trinity is three persons, but one God. God is wholely present in each person of the Trinity. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God, but there is only one God.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

This is both a sad and funny thread.

If you are going to attack the Morman beliefs concerning the Trinity, you should at least make sure you understand it yourselves. Half of you are professing to be monophysites. Go back and read the Athanasian Creed, all other beliefs are heresy.

The Trinity is three persons, but one God. God is wholely present in each person of the Trinity. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God, but there is only one God.

I agree. I don't know if you are talking to me but that is exactly what I was saying. Not in such plain and simple words as you but that is what I believe the trinity to be also.

Grace

 

[Lotar]

I'm talking to the people who say there is one God with different aspects.

 

[ChileanEldr2004]

How does the CoJCoLDS reconcile these three verses if God and Jesus are two separate personages?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 14:9)
9 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, who created the heavens and the earth, a light which cannot be hid in darkness;

(Book of Mormon | Mormon 9:11)
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.

Colossians 1 CHAPTER
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Does that answer your question, Christ created all thing under the direction of his Father.

 

[Tawhano]

ChileanEldr2004 said:
Does that answer your question, Christ created all thing under the direction of his Father.

Thank you for your reply ChileanEldr2004, but of course that doesn’t answer my question at all. Genesis 1:1 and Mormon 9:11 both clearly state that it was God who created the heavens and earth but D&C Section 14:9 says that it was Jesus. None of those scriptures or any of the other found in the BofM and the Bible say that Jesus created the heavens and earth under the directions of God. These verses would, of course, be completely reconcilable under the Trinity theory but do not support the separate personages theory.

The thing about the translations of the Bible that may taint the interpretations a bit is that the writer had to explain things that were not of this world in a way that people could understand it, in his language. Then people far removed from that time period had to translate it into their language. This problem does not occur in the BofM because Joseph Smith translated it by the power of God directly. He didn’t translate it into a language he knew but rather was given the translation in the language he knew by God. So therefore when it says God created the heavens and earth it must mean God himself created it by himself. The same applies to the D&C, revelation to Joseph Smith directly so when it says Jesus created the heavens and earth then it must mean that Jesus created it himself. If God directed him it would have said that as to avoid confusion.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:14)
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

There must be another explanation to reconcile those verses as the one you give doesn’t add up. Also the verse you quoted would support that Jesus was in fact God as well.

 

[ChileanEldr2004]

Thank you for your reply ChileanEldr2004, but of course that doesn’t answer my question at all. Genesis 1:1 and Mormon 9:11 both clearly state that it was God who created the heavens and earth but D&C Section 14:9 says that it was Jesus. None of those scriptures or any of the other found in the BofM and the Bible say that Jesus created the heavens and earth under the directions of God. These verses would, of course, be completely reconcilable under the Trinity theory but do not support the separate personages theory.

The thing about the translations of the Bible that may taint the interpretations a bit is that the writer had to explain things that were not of this world in a way that people could understand it, in his language. Then people far removed from that time period had to translate it into their language. This problem does not occur in the BofM because Joseph Smith translated it by the power of God directly. He didn’t translate it into a language he knew but rather was given the translation in the language he knew by God. So therefore when it says God created the heavens and earth it must mean God himself created it by himself. The same applies to the D&C, revelation to Joseph Smith directly so when it says Jesus created the heavens and earth then it must mean that Jesus created it himself. If God directed him it would have said that as to avoid confusion.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:14)
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

There must be another explanation to reconcile those verses as the one you give doesn’t add up. Also the verse you quoted would support that Jesus was in fact God as well.

I apologize for not more clearly stating what I was hoping to explain. This is going into modern revelation, but here goes. I believe that we all lived with God before we were born here into this earth life. Notice at the burning bush that God or the lord, or Jehova says that his name is I AM, and also in the new testament, when they ask him about his heritage to Abraham he says, even before Abraham was I AM, there are other many proofs that Jesus, is Jehova of the Old Testament. That being said, Jesus is a God, using that as a title, not meaning God in the sense of the all powerful God above. This may be a bad example, but how about like doctor. Okay, so God (I will refer to as Our Heavenly Father) Our Heavenly Father, created all things by Jesus Christ his only begotten(Jehova, the Lord God) that are in the earth. Which explains why there can be some confusion. Because they are two separate people, and Jesus has many titles, like The messiah, the Christ, Savior, Redemmer, Lord, and God. I hope I didn't confuse you more.

 

[12volt_man]

Hiya 12Volt,
I agree with everything you posted above except for this one statement "We believe that they are three seperate beings."

As a Christian I believe that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct or individual persons but have (share) the same being and are One God. Some call it essense, I usually refer to it as 'being". Perhaps you and I actually agree but are using different wording?
God Bless,

Grace

Grace, from what you're describing, it doesn't sound like we disagree.

The three members of the Godhead are three in personality but one in nature.

That's what it sounds like you're saying and what I was trying to say, albeit not very well, evidently.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Grace, from what you're describing, it doesn't sound like we disagree.

The three members of the Godhead are three in personality but one in nature.

That's what it sounds like you're saying and what I was trying to say, albeit not very well, evidently.

LOL, I am not that great at describing the trinity of God myself. It is hard to try and use human words to explain a Godly concept...

God Bless,
Grace

 

[Rescued One]

Actually, the Trinity does not consist of three persons. The Trinity is one person with three different forms. It is the belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that they are three persons. We're beginning to rub off on you.

You described modalism, not the Trinity.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

You described modalism, not the Trinity.

Exactly. The trinity is not one person with 3 forms. It is 3 persons with one being.

Grace

 

[Tawhano]

ChileanEldr2004 said:
Which explains why there can be some confusion.

Which is why I have concern with your answer. God is not the author of confusion. The BofM is supposed to be a more perfect witness to Christ than the Bible according to the teachings of the CoJCoLDS. As I stated in my previous post the translations of the BofM is a direct translation and supposedly no verses were lost as was the case with the Bible. If this being the case then the BofM would clear up the confusion made in the Bible. I believe the BofM closely parallels the teachings of the Bible in this area and it is the later revelations (D&C, etc) that cause the confusion and not the similar titles of Jesus and God.

 

[12volt_man]

Exactly. The trinity is not one person with 3 forms. It is 3 persons with one being.

Grace

When I was a new Christian, I actually was a modalist, albeit out of ignorance, rather than conviction. I described the Trinity as a family man. To his children, he is a father (Father). To his parents, he is a son (Jesus). To his wife, he is a helpmate (Holy Spirit).

I was called on that pretty sharply by a man in our church and I'm glad he did.

 

[ChileanEldr2004]

Which is why I have concern with your answer. God is not the author of confusion. The BofM is supposed to be a more perfect witness to Christ than the Bible according to the teachings of the CoJCoLDS. As I stated in my previous post the translations of the BofM is a direct translation and supposedly no verses were lost as was the case with the Bible. If this being the case then the BofM would clear up the confusion made in the Bible. I believe the BofM closely parallels the teachings of the Bible in this area and it is the later revelations (D&C, etc) that cause the confusion and not the similar titles of Jesus and God.

When I said that their can be some confusion, I as meaning as to people on the outside looking inward. I think that there are many people that are confused about the very thing that you ar describing. I think the bible, clearly, as shown by the OP, clearly shows that God and Jesus are separate beings. God is not Jesus, God is the Father of Jesus. The Book of Mormon, if you search the scriptures, helps you understand this, I promise. I know at times I was confused, but reading and studying, and searching the Book of Mormon together with the Bible, gives a better understanding of the Nature of God. For example, the book of Mormon explains that because of Jesus Christ's infinite and eternal sacrifice for us, all those who take upon themselves his name are begotten of Christ and become his sons and his daughters, therefore Christ can be considered a Father, but also is our elder brother. That might sound confusing to you, but after much studying it honestly makes perfect sense.

 

[jessedance]

actually neither trinity or godhead are biblical words. godhead is a bad translation of the greek word theotes in col 2:9 which means divinity or god essence. godhead is old english for godhood, yet most christians don't view godhead in this light. Most christians view godhead to mean 3 gods that are one god. I don't know why so many christians persist in this error when it is so easily exposed. the greek word for head is kapa , that word is never in the greek word translated godhead.

 

[jessedance]

so the whole topic of this thread is outside the bible

 

[Tawhano]

ChileanEldr2004 said:
God is not Jesus, God is the Father of Jesus. The Book of Mormon, if you search the scriptures, helps you understand this, I promise. I know at times I was confused, but reading and studying, and searching the Book of Mormon together with the Bible, gives a better understanding of the Nature of God.

Reading, studying, and searching the Book of Mormon together with the Bible has taught me that God and Jesus are one and the same. Jesus was God in the flesh. God ‘conceived’ Jesus by the Holy Spirit to dwell among men to offer the sacrifice of the new covenant. God can not die so He became flesh to die for mankind. Jesus being God in the flesh was a separate personage because of the flesh. God did not leave His abode to dwell in the flesh. God exists in all things for He created all things.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 15:1 - 4)
1 AND now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:21)
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

actually neither trinity or godhead are biblical words. godhead is a bad translation of the greek word theotes in col 2:9 which means divinity or god essence. godhead is old english for godhood, yet most christians don't view godhead in this light. Most christians view godhead to mean 3 gods that are one god. I don't know why so many christians persist in this error when it is so easily exposed. the greek word for head is kapa , that word is never in the greek word translated godhead.

I am not sure why you think that most Christians believe that Godhead is 3 gods that are one God. As far as I know, most Christians believe that it is 3 persons that are one God, not 3 gods that are one God.

Grace