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Trinity logic...

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by jimraboin, May 19, 2002.

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  1. jimraboin

    jimraboin Member

    110
    +0
    Let me ask you. Why are you convinced Trinity is exactly how God is constructed?

    You will answer, "Because Catholic institution tells me."

    Okay. How does it know trinity is exactly how God is constructed?

    It will say, "Because we rely on apostolic tradition as relayed by early fathers."

    Okay. Then tell me. How do we know that these early fathers were shown exactly how God is constructed? Especially when they often contradict themselves. Add to that they never claimed God showed them...they merely "imagined". So why should I accept Gentile imaginations over testimony from the believing brothers from Israel? They have never know God as three distinct personalities. Why are they wrong given God's intimate contact and massive revelations he vested within Old Testament Israel? Why is their traditional understanding wrong and Gentile imagination correct?
     
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  2. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    Aside from scriptural references, here's one way to see it:

    Water comes in 3 forms, yet it's the same thing:
    gas
    liquid
    solid (ice)
     
  3. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    The triune formula of Baptism that Jesus gives to his disciples when he sends them forth to teach the Gospel is one of the BIGGEST indicators of the Trinity.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  4. stillsmallvoice

    stillsmallvoice The Narn rule!

    +174
    Judaism
    Married
    Hi all!

    Well, to add a different note, our very great 9th century CE Sage, Saadya Gaon, considered the Christian notion of a triune God. He said that to consider God to be 3 persons is subject Him to the human concepts of quantity and number. A truly transcendant God who is not limited or defined by the natural-world concepts of quantity & number can only be One, a unity, a single "person."

    I have always wondered where our Nazarene cousins get the concept of the Trinity (which, to us, seems tritheistic) from. Would anyone please care to explain it to me? Aren't there, or haven't there been, Christian sects which do not accept the concept?

    ssv
     
  5. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To SSV:

    A true Christian belief accepts the Trinity teaching, however there are "offshoots" of Christianity which hold a different concept.

    It's a matter of Scriptural interpretation. The Trinity is considered to be foreshadowed in the Old Testament, and revealed in the New Testament. And it is supposed to be one of the mysteries of faith. Our small minds cannot grasp the complexity of it, the purity of it, and rather than analyze it, we accept it.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  6. jimraboin

    jimraboin Member

    110
    +0
    My experience has shown that many, many Messianic brothers love Jesus as their Messiah and do not see through their tradition or Scriptures that God is anything other than a singular God who refers to himself on occassion using a plurality. They have never embraced Gentile Christianity nor do they feel the need to "convert".

    These brothers love God. How do we handle them?

    Jim
     
  7. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    I am not catholic..but I personally believe that Jesus is God.

    I don't think it's up to us to "handle" the messanic brothers. I think that God will be the judge in the end. We should love them as we are told to love one another in the bible.

    Missy
     
  8. WayneH

    WayneH Washed in His Blood

    583
    +6
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I've seen MANY MANY Jewish Cousins accept Christ as saviour - believing him to be the Messiah - and also grasping the concept of a triune God... basics - FAITH....

    The Bible is full of references to God being more then one but still One....
     
  9. KC Catholic

    KC Catholic Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

    +76
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Well, I believe that God does not break covenants with man and the same holds true for the Jewish people. He has a plan for them.
     
  10. stillsmallvoice

    stillsmallvoice The Narn rule!

    +174
    Judaism
    Married
    Hi all!

    WayneH posted:

    "I've seen MANY MANY Jewish Cousins accept Christ as saviour - believing him to be the Messiah - and also grasping the concept of a triune God... basics - FAITH...."

    While I certainly do not doubt your sincerity, I will respectfully repeat that belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, in the Trinity & in the Incarnation are completely & totally incompatible with normative Judaism, period; the matter is not subject to debate, no matter what "Jews for Jesus" and other such groups might have you believe.

    "The Bible is full of references to I've seen MANY MANY Jewish Cousins accept Christ as saviour - believing him to be the Messiah - and also grasping the concept of a triune God... basics - FAITH....The Bible is full of references to God being more then one but still One...."

    In our view, there are NO such references (I guess that we'll have to amicably log this one under the heading of "agree-to-disagree".)

    "...God being more then one but still One...."

    We would dismiss such notions as theistic semantics & sophistry (but, of course, I fully respect our Nazarene cousins who believe otherwise).

    Be well!

    ssv
     
  11. AngelAmidala

    AngelAmidala Legend

    +617
    Methodist
    Single
    Wow...that's the second time I've heard that in 2 days. One of the kids in confirmation class used that as an example of something they learned about the Trinity during their class. :)
     
  12. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Exactly AngelA...I love that anaolgy. If they are older you can tell them about chemical formulas..its all H20
     
  13. jimraboin

    jimraboin Member

    110
    +0
    If man is made in God's image, consider this.

    I am a father, son and an uncle. Three aspects of me yet still one singular fellow. Does this analogy also fit with Scripture?

    Thoughts?

    Jim
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    hmm...good thought, though I wouldn't want to go that route.
     
  15. stillsmallvoice

    stillsmallvoice The Narn rule!

    +174
    Judaism
    Married
    Hi all!

    psycmajor posted:

    "Water comes in 3 forms, yet it's the same thing:
    gas, liquid, solid (ice)"

    But just as we believe that God cannot be subject (or subjected) to, nor defined/limited by, the human/corporeal attributes of quantity and number, we also believe that analogies from the physical sciences simply cannot be applied to a truly transcendant God. I do not see how the Creator cannot be likened to any created thing, not even to illustrate a point.

    jimraboin posted:

    "If man is made in God's image, consider this.
    I am a father, son and an uncle. Three aspects of me yet still one singular fellow...Thoughts?"

    What I said above about using analogies from the physical sciences for God applies in this case too. We all believe that God created humanity in His Image; Jumraboin's analogy would cast God in our image. (I'm a son, husband, father, grandson, brother, uncle, cousin & nephew; does that mean God could be eight persons?)

    Be well!

    ssv
     
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "I do not see how the Creator cannot be likened to any created thing, not even to illustrate a point. "

    well in your context, I'm going to assume you added one too many nots. Well me MUST liken him to something in a analogy format. Read Thomas A. thoughts on religious language. Good stuff. If we can't then there is not point about talking about God. How can you describe something that defines everything. You can't without anaology.
     
  17. jimraboin

    jimraboin Member

    110
    +0
    My point is that none of us know for certain how God is constructed. Therefore none of us should hold dogmatcally to any ideas about this subject. Dogmatic adherence to vague ideas breeds division. Not what God wants in his body.

    Jim
     
  18. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    "Well, to add a different note, our very great 9th century CE Sage, Saadya Gaon, considered the Christian notion of a triune God. He said that to consider God to be 3 persons is subject Him to the human concepts of quantity and number. A truly transcendant God who is not limited or defined by the natural-world concepts of quantity & number can only be One, a unity, a single "person.""

    I have to go back ot this quote. Maybe I am not taking this ins the right way but Saadya Gaon says "A truly transcendant God who is not limited or defined by the natural-world concepts of quantity & number..." but then says "can only be One, a unity, a single "person."" Now maybe I am wong but is not 1 a number? So that is just as limiting to God as saying God is a Trinity. Maybe even more so.

    BLackhawk
     
  19. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    "My point is that none of us know for certain how God is constructed. Therefore none of us should hold dogmatcally to any ideas about this subject. Dogmatic adherence to vague ideas breeds division. Not what God wants in his body."

    No but we can know somewhat. The Trinity is a mystery that no analogies can fully explain. They help but they are not meant to be exact replications of the Trinity. There is none. The egg is the one I like the best but it has its problems. So does the water analogy. But again they are just meant to help explain the mystery not to be exact replications of it.

    stillsmallvoice is right when he says that nothing of this world can really explain God but that does not mean that things can't help us understand Him. Really all of creation can help us understand Him because He created all of it.

    So the Trinity is a mystery but God has revealed some things to us and I think we would be not loving God "...with all our minds..." unless we try and understand what He has revealed to us. But only through His understanding and guidance can we understand it at all.

    I like A.W. Tozer's view of God. God is like the moon. There is always a lighted side and a dark side. (not Star Wars) The lighted side is what God has revealed to us and the dark side is what He has not. Some day He will. Like Paul said

    1Cr 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
    1Cr 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
    1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
    1Cr 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

    But this does not mean that we should take what God has revealed to us and not use it. God has revealed what He has to us for a reason and we need to Love God with all our minds.

    Now the information in the Bible is part of what He hs revealed to us. And in the Bible the concept of the Trinity is shown very clearly. Not fully explained but it is shown as truth. So I can say that the Trinity is a mystery but not illogical.

    blackhawk
     
  20. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

    +37
    Christian
    1John 5:1-12
    Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and everyone who loves the parent loves the child. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world, and this is the victory that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
    This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with water and the blood. And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood: and these three agree. If we rec3eive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater: for this is the testimony of God that he has borne witness to his Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.
     
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