This is a 3rd attempt to start a thread, in a part of the site that will allow discussions about the validity of the trinity. St Worm2 asked me to start this thread, so that we could discuss the issue in an appropriate thread, according to Forum guidelines.
So, to kick things off ... I have copied a portion of a previous post;
Please explain
John 20:17, and Rev 3:12, in that Jesus CLEARLY states he has a God!
Please explain
John 4:22, in that Jesus CLEARLY states he worships the God of the Jews!
I've read through only a little of this and I notice Jane has been answering you. I would like to look at the three passages you gave and them some.
John 4
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
The 'we' includes who? There were many different sects of Jews at that time and he seems to be rejecting the sect who was in control of the Temple. These Jews reject the Father,
*John 16
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
They had merged the Father El with Yahweh and were worshiping "the daughter of a strange god" Mal 2. It was they who sent out Paul to round up the Christians to kill thus fulfilling Jesus prophecy.
The 'we' meant those who had become his disciples.
John 1 "Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God/El; thou art the King of Israel/ Yahweh."
This sect of Jews retained the original understand of a Father and Son relationship and so it was easy for them to accept Jesus as Yahweh and the Messiah. Jesus was teaching this Samarian woman of the Father and telling her it was time to worship him as they did in the past.
*John 20
“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God….. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Rev 3
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
And lets add Heb 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And 2Sam2:22
2 And he said, The Lord/Yahweh/Jesus is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust:
There are others but this aught to be enough. This is why I have rejected the idea of the Trinity. It’s just not logical that one can be their own God.
What is missing in the Trinity argument is the concept of agent, Jesus / Yahweh is the agent of the Father thus speaks as if he was the Father and that is the confusion in the Old Testament.
The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion:
Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself” (Ned. 72b; Kidd. 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.
That is what the John 5 argument was about.
“17 ¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
They didn’t actually believe in a Father God except in the concept that Yahweh and El were one being much like the Trinity so they perceived Jesus was calling himself God.
But Jesus corrects them and says;
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise….”
There are some deeper meanings to that but he was telling them I am not equal to the Father but act as his agent.
“ 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”
These two have separate wills however the will of the Son is swallowed up in the will of the Father.
John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
And so I reject “the validity of the trinity.”
