Trinity discussion with St Worm2

[Dartman]

The bible commands us to believe in God.

Yes.

The Trinity is God.

No.

Why would you need a seperate command to believe in the Trinity?

You need some Scripture explaining, stating, teaching or preaching that God is a trinity ..... and there are none.
In stark contrast, we have verses teaching that Jehovah/YHVH alone is God.
That Jesus is God's servant.
That Jesus is of the tribe of Judah, is a descendant of Eve, Abraham, David and Mary.
That Jesus worships the God of the Jews, and states his Father is GREATER.

NOW you are beginning to catch on to the issue.

 

[ExodusMe]

Yes.
No.
You need some Scripture explaining, stating, teaching or preaching that God is a trinity ..... and there are none.

NOW you are beginning to catch on to the issue.

I think we are where I started on my first post as it is pretty clear the bible teaches the trinity from the passages I cited.

Make sense of these passages
Genesis 1:26 God speaks of himself with plural nouns
John 1:1-18 jesus existed from the beginning with God and everything came to exist through him. How is he just a man?
Matthew 28:19 why would you baptize in the name of Jesus if he is just a man? Or the Holy Spirit?

Finally, why was jesus crucified? For blasphemy.

John 10:33

 

[ExodusMe]

The father is greater than the son. Not sure what your point is here. They are both equally God, but the son submits to the father and does his will.

Likewise, a husband is the head of his wife. They are both equal, but the wife submits to the husband out of love. Therefore, the husband is 'greater', but only in authority as both the wife and husband share the same human nature.

 

[Dartman]

I think we are where I started on my first post as it is pretty clear the bible teaches the trinity from the passages I cited.

Make sense of these passages
Genesis 1:26 God speaks of himself in the third person with plural nouns

Why do you assume there were no other beings in the conversation?? The angels were obviously there, and were actively involved! (Job 38:1-7)There is NOTHING in the text claiming ANY notion of 'trinity'!! Your injection of trinitarian thought in this text is purely prejudice. It has been drilled into your mind, SO successfully, you don't seem to even be able to recognize any OTHER option here!!

John 1:1-18 jesus existed from the beginning with God and everything came to exist through him. How is he just a man?

Again, your prejudice is obvious. God's words are the topic of verse one, NOT Jesus!

Matthew 28:19 why would you baptize in the name of Jesus if he is just a man? Or the Holy Spirit?

Because God commanded all men to accept Jesus as Lord, and Christ! Again, your attempting to force this text to say something VERY different than the actual WORDS of the text state!!
You have been brainwashed into seeing this text as a clear statement of trinity, when in fact, the trinity is NEVER mentioned or explained in this, or ANY other text.

Finally, why was jesus crucified? For blasphemy.

John 10:33

No. Jesus wasn't crucified in John 10, and the Scriptures state SEVERAL actual reasons Jesus was murdered ... "blasphemy" was a false accusation.

 

[Dartman]

The father is greater than the son.

Perhaps in your 'flavor' of 'trinity'. The official doctrine is; "co-equal, co-eternal and con-substantial"

Not sure what your point is here. They are both equally God,

Not according to Scripture. Not according to ANY real world examples. Your attempt to use husband and wife doesn't match, since the husband and wife are distinct beings, and are "one" in unity. I 100% agree this is a GREAT example of the TRUTH regarding God and His son.... Jehovah is a distinct being, Jesus is a distinct being, Jesus is subject to his God, and they are "one" in unity ... just like ALL believers can be "one" with God and Jesus. (John 17:20-22)

BUT, this isn't consistent with trinitarian theory!!

 

[ExodusMe]

Why do you assume there were no other beings in the conversation?? The angels were obviously there, and were actively involved! (Job 38:1-7)There is NOTHING in the text claiming ANY notion of 'trinity'!! Your injection of trinitarian thought in this text is purely prejudice. It has been drilled into your mind, SO successfully, you don't seem to even be able to recognize any OTHER option here!!

Drilled into my mind because it makes sense. Why would God be telling angels to make man like himself?

Again, your prejudice is obvious. God's words are the topic of verse one, NOT Jesus!

so in John 1:14 when it says that the word became flesh you think that means....?

Because God commanded all men to accept Jesus as Lord, and Christ! Again, your attempting to force this text to say something VERY different than the actual WORDS of the text state!!
You have been brainwashed into seeing this text as a clear statement of trinity, when in fact, the trinity is NEVER mentioned or explained in this, or ANY other text.

Unless Jesus was God?

No. Jesus wasn't crucified in John 10, and the Scriptures state SEVERAL actual reasons Jesus was murdered ... "blasphemy" was a false accusation.

Okay so they put it in the bible because it wasn't relevant. That is a great explanation /sarcasm.

 

[ExodusMe]

Perhaps in your 'flavor' of 'trinity'. The official doctrine is; "co-equal, co-eternal and con-substantial"

I would agree with this definition and still maintain my interpretation.

Not according to Scripture. Not according to ANY real world examples. Your attempt to use husband and wife doesn't match, since the husband and wife are distinct beings, and are "one" in unity. I 100% agree this is a GREAT example of the TRUTH regarding God and His son.... Jehovah is a distinct being, Jesus is a distinct being, Jesus is subject to his God, and they are "one" in unity ... just like ALL believers can be "one" with God and Jesus. (John 17:20-22)

BUT, this isn't consistent with trinitarian theory!!

Yeah it is a metaphor. It isn't meant to match exactly. The point is that the husband and wife are both humans (i.e. equal in nature), but we can say the husband is 'greater' than the wife in authority as the wife submits to the husband...

We can make this same metaphor about a business relationship too. Two equal positions in a company, but one might submit to the other.

 

[Dartman]

Why would God be telling angels to make man like himself?

God is discussing His actions with the angels. Kind of like my wife says to the grandkids... "let's make cookies". She has NO intention that the tiny ones will actually mix/cook anything, but their participation is a source of great joy, and sharing.

Job 38:7 ... all the sons of God shouted for joy

so in John 1:14 when it says that the word became flesh you think that means....?

God's words/logos came to pass as a flesh and blood baby boy in Bethlehem.

Unless Jesus was God?

Sorry, any search on "Jesus is God", "God the Son", or any other trinitarian phrase, simply fails. The Bible doesn't teach the trinity.

No. Jesus wasn't crucified in John 10, and the Scriptures state SEVERAL actual reasons Jesus was murdered ... "blasphemy" was a false accusation.

Okay so they put it in the bible because it wasn't relevant. That is a great explanation /sarcasm.

... (patience, Dartman, patience).... Are you really unaware that some accounts in the Bible record peoples lies? And, are you really unaware that those lies can still be relevant? Are you really unaware that the lies those people told, are NOT supposed to be actually BELIEVED by the Bible student?

 

[ExodusMe]

God is discussing His actions with the angels. Kind of like my wife says to the grandkids... "let's make cookies". She has NO intention that the tiny ones will actually mix/cook anything, but their participation is a source of great joy, and sharing.

Job 38:7 ... all the sons of God shouted for joy
God's words/logos came to pass as a flesh and blood baby boy in Bethlehem.

Sorry, any search on "Jesus is God", "God the Son", or any other trinitarian phrase, simply fails. The Bible doesn't teach the trinity.
... (patience, Dartman, patience).... Are you really unaware that some accounts in the Bible record peoples lies? And, are you really unaware that those lies can still be relevant? Are you really unaware that the lies those people told, are NOT supposed to be actually BELIEVED by the Bible student?

Sounds like you are a zealous heretic and an enemy of reason. I don't believe in the Trinity because other people told me so. I believe it because it makes the most sense from the biblical data we have. That is how the doctrine arose. There were heretics like yourself who refused to say that Jesus is divine and the question arose how the Holy Spirit and Father are divine also. The doctrine of the Trinity was formed as it put context to the teachings of the bible. Much like how the word 'bible' doesn't appear in the 'bible'.

See ya

 

[Noxot]

What would you think this passage is saying;
2 John 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

2 John 1:7-11 (YLT)
because many leading astray did enter into the world, who are not confessing Jesus Christ coming in flesh; this one is he who is leading astray, and the antichrist. See to yourselves that ye may not lose the things that we wrought, but a full reward may receive; every one who is transgressing, and is not remaining in the teaching of the Christ, hath not God; he who is remaining in the teaching of the Christ, this one hath both the Father and the Son; if any one doth come unto you, and this teaching doth not bear, receive him not into the house, and say not to him, `Hail!' for he who is saying to him, `Hail,' hath fellowship with his evil works.

it's saying that those who are not in Christ are false and that we should have nothing to do with evil and to cling to God with all we are and to remain spiritual virgins. for Christ to come in the flesh means that he lives in us and we live in him and that he lives in our actions and that he is making war with the beast inside of ourselves and that we ought not to trust the enemy that is in or outside us but only God and however he leads us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Really? Who declared that?

Please read this article here to learn more.

Dogs are awesome!

Indeed. God's creation is awesome.

You may enjoy this.

...

 

[Dartman]

2 John 1:7-11 (YLT)
because many leading astray did enter into the world, who are not confessing Jesus Christ coming in flesh; this one is he who is leading astray, and the antichrist. See to yourselves that ye may not lose the things that we wrought, but a full reward may receive; every one who is transgressing, and is not remaining in the teaching of the Christ, hath not God; he who is remaining in the teaching of the Christ, this one hath both the Father and the Son; if any one doth come unto you, and this teaching doth not bear, receive him not into the house, and say not to him, `Hail!' for he who is saying to him, `Hail,' hath fellowship with his evil works.

it's saying that those who are not in Christ are false and that we should have nothing to do with evil and to cling to God with all we are and to remain spiritual virgins. for Christ to come in the flesh means that he lives in us and we live in him and that he lives in our actions and that he is making war with the beast inside of ourselves and that we ought not to trust the enemy that is in or outside us but only God and however he leads us.

The reason I asked about this passage is, the context makes it VERY clear the "teaching of Christ" is NOT a topic we should just accept anyone's opinion, and "bid them Godspeed". The topic is one about which we should be VERY cautious who we call "brother".

 

[danny ski]

All of them.... you know, just to be on the safe side.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

So, what are those commandments? Is there a book that he wrote them in? If he's the prophet like Moses, there surely is a book, no?

 

[Dartman]

All of them.... you know, just to be on the safe side.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

So, what are those commandments? Is there a book that he wrote them in? If he's the prophet like Moses, there surely is a book, no?

..... so .... Are you arguing with Jesus here?
You realize JESUS is the one that said "keep my commandments" .... not me, right?
Are you claiming Jesus lied, and he really doesn't HAVE any commandments?

 

[unbelievable1]

That mission was assigned to him by "the ONLY true God". Jesus didn't assign/ordain/anoint himself.
Your theory isn't Biblical.
Your excuses for WHY it's not in the Bible do NOT overcome the simple fact, trinitarian theory is MAN made.
And, trinitarian theory is NEVER ...... EVER ..... preached, to ANY audience in the Scripture!
Paul INSISTS that we cling to the Jesus they DID PREACH!!

Why?
Why cling to Jesus?
"Why put our hopes in a man?
Of what account is a man?"

 

[unbelievable1]

..... so .... Are you arguing with Jesus here?
You realize JESUS is the one that said "keep my commandments" .... not me, right?
Are you claiming Jesus lied, and he really doesn't HAVE any commandments?

Jesus has commands and he asks us to obey his commands?
Why?

Does he really have a right to say of God's word as he did in matthew 5:

you have heard it said
you have heard it written
but I say to you?

Can a man override God and say even though God has said , I say to you this?

Interesting!

 

[Dartman]

That mission was assigned to him by "the ONLY true God". Jesus didn't assign/ordain/anoint himself.
Your theory isn't Biblical.
Your excuses for WHY it's not in the Bible do NOT overcome the simple fact, trinitarian theory is MAN made.
And, trinitarian theory is NEVER ...... EVER ..... preached, to ANY audience in the Scripture!
Paul INSISTS that we cling to the Jesus they DID PREACH!!

Why?
Why cling to Jesus?
"Why put our hopes in a man?
Of what account is a man?"

Acts 2:22-24 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Acts 10:36-43 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all) 37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

 

[Dartman]

..... so .... Are you arguing with Jesus here?
You realize JESUS is the one that said "keep my commandments" .... not me, right?
Are you claiming Jesus lied, and he really doesn't HAVE any commandments?

Jesus has commands and he asks us to obey his commands?
Why?

Does he really have a right to say of God's word as he did in matthew 5:

you have heard it said
you have heard it written
but I say to you?

Can a man override God and say even though God has said , I say to you this?

Interesting!

God can change Laws, and has, any time HE wants. Jehovah/YHVH God foretold that He would change the Mosaic Law, through a "prophet like Moses".

Deut 18:15-19 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

Acts 3:19-24 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that he may send the Christ who hath been appointed for you, (even) Jesus: 21 whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spake by the mouth of His holy prophets that have been from of old. 22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.


John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

 

[Robban]

God can change Laws, and has, any time HE wants. Jehovah/YHVH God foretold that He would change the Mosaic Law, through a "prophet like Moses".

Deut 18:15-19 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

Acts 3:19-24 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that he may send the Christ who hath been appointed for you, (even) Jesus: 21 whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spake by the mouth of His holy prophets that have been from of old. 22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.


John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

The era of prophesy officially came to an end some 23 centuries ago.
Some witnessed the building of the second Temple,
but with end of that generation,
prophecy departed from Israel.

So he was a bit late in coming.

There is a lesser form, Divine inspiration, but that does come even near to being like Moses, who knew God face to face.

 

[unbelievable1]

God can change Laws, and has, any time HE wants. Jehovah/YHVH God foretold that He would change the Mosaic Law, through a "prophet like Moses".

Deut 18:15-19 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

Acts 3:19-24 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that he may send the Christ who hath been appointed for you, (even) Jesus: 21 whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spake by the mouth of His holy prophets that have been from of old. 22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.


John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

God can change laws?

Hmmmm?

God can change his mind?

I don't think so

Actually he didnt say that he would change the laws through a prophet
he said he would put his words in his mouth and all would be required to listen to him..

all because the people didn''t want to hear his voice lest the perish