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Trinity Discussion (From Messianic Judaism FAQ)

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by simchat_torah, Apr 1, 2003.

  1. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    +407
    Judaism
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    trinity....


    heh, haven't gotten that argument out of my system on these threads yet... beware, I'm out on the prowl...

    ahahhahahaha, I'm just kidding.

    Seriously, that can be fun, and I'll definately be sensitive and try not to offend.
     
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  2. Talmid HaYarok

    Talmid HaYarok Active Member

    475
    +8
    Messianic
    They believe it because they have no clue what the Bible says defining a Sabbath.

    These FAQs are the time to educate people are they not?

    I know your personal feelings ST, but Trinity is and always has been the beliefs of Messianics and their Nazarene forbearors. Its one thing the Gentile churches definitely received and kept from us rather than inventing on their own.
     
  3. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    +407
    Judaism
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Shalom Talmid,

    You do? I haven't shared them on this board as of yet.

    There is no evidence that the original Netzarim held to the trinity. As well, the modern Netzarim don't as well. In fact, many messianic congregations and leaders within the community don't believe in the trirnity, despite the major ograinizations (MJAA and UMJC) partially and carefully aligning with the trinity.

    At the Messiah 2000 conference I went to, one of the main guest speakers discussed the original Netzarim stance on the trinity and he disregarded the Netzarim as accepting it. He then went on to say that the "messianics" of today have grown past that and have accepted the trinity... he was was not disputed by anyone on this point.

    Anyway, as the trinity idea is a splintered one within MJ'ism it would be an excellent discussion in a FAQ. Besides, you brought it up in your first post as one of the topics we could discuss, yet you want to so quickly dismiss it???

    Shalom,
    Yafet.
     
  4. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Simchat.. thanks for elaborating on that subject of the trinity. I was going to actually point that out myself reguarding the Netzarim.. but I didn't want to seem the cynic as I am always played out to be on various issues.

    Since it is definitely a splintered subject, I would think it would be a great discussion. So thanks for pointing it out..

    Missy
     
  5. Talmid HaYarok

    Talmid HaYarok Active Member

    475
    +8
    Messianic
    Actually you did post them on this board when you first came here.

    Anyways I'll take this up in more detail later. However, it was a move against the Nazarenes which prompted the late P'rushim movement to say the Lord is singular in nature (and not Trinitarian). I'll get sources for you later when I'm back on.
     
  6. Talmid HaYarok

    Talmid HaYarok Active Member

    475
    +8
    Messianic
    I want to take my time with a detailed answer to this thread so I'll be back in a couple days. Don't think that I'm ignoring it! Its just too important to me to suffice with any quick answers.
     
  7. Talmid HaYarok

    Talmid HaYarok Active Member

    475
    +8
    Messianic
    Bump.

    Maybe now that this is split out of the FAQ I can get back to answering it after the Sabbath is over.
     
  8. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

    647
    +16
    Messianic
    hehe :)

    I'm still waiting. :)
     
  9. Edouard

    Edouard Regular Member

    234
    +6
    Non-Denom
    US-Republican
    The trinity:
    In Genesis 1 their is an implication in the hebrew in the aspect of G-d being plural. Now not pluralstic as in polytheism, but pluralistic in the sense their is something more than just God. John 1:1 blatantly explains this subject. Actually the entire book of John talks about our G-d and Jesus and the Holy Spirit as being one. So i guess I am wondering where the confusion is and where the misunderstanding takes place?

    Edouard
    May G-d shine His light upon you and may uou know Him Fully.
     
  10. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    LOL.. I would think you would have to being a Mod Pray..

    Happy Birthday Simchat.. and many many many more!

    Blessings,
    Missy
     
  11. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

    647
    +16
    Messianic
    :cool: Yom haHoledet sameach.....:clap: :wave:
    Ad mea ve'esrim.
     
  12. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

    +407
    Judaism
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Shalom and Shalom....


    Thank you all.

    I'm sure you noticed my absence over the weekend.... I was busy having a blast with the family. We went to an authentic Greek resturant and even saw a belly dancer there! hahaha
    Then we went to an Arabic resturant the next day.... both places had some of the best food I've ever had in my life.

    shalom and shalom,
    Yafet.
     
  13. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    Hee hee Simchat.. gettin' an eyeful huh ? LOL! I am glad you had a nice birthday. I am happy for you. Bless you!

    Missy
     
  14. Shamash Of Yeshua

    Shamash Of Yeshua Servant

    +45
    Single
    Shalom to all,

    Here is my finite brains thinking on this. We finite beings can't begin to define YHWH in all His ways He does things in the realm of this earth let alone the universe. From my understanding, which is still finite, YHWH is ONE. For is you read in the Tanakh you will see He says HE Alone brings Salvation. And YHWH had a SON by HIS Ruach through a Virgin and called him Yeshua which means YHWH's Salvation(or saves).
    I changed my thoughts here because I have a new and better understanding that YHWH and Yeshua are One as Yeshua and We are One. So please tell me since the B'rit Khadashah mentions "Son of G_D" 136 times, which once in the Tanakh.
    Picture this for a moment: Joseph had all the power in Egypt to rule except the rule of Pharoh and his house. Now lets look at Yeshua in the same light since He is at the Right Hand of YHWH and has all the power of rule except the rule of YHWH. I see the time of the Israelites and Egypt as a window to see what was to come in the sense of the Messiah. For they had Joseph that had to power to rule for a time, then when he died the Egyptians abused the Israelites and then came Moses who brought them out of Egypt and they live on what YHWH provided them for 40 years in the desert. Then came the Promised land. What is the promised land for us? Heaven isn't it? Doesn't the Messiah come twice? In my humble opinion He does. We have Joseph who rules but is still under the one who is the Pharoh, I see Yeshua as that under the Father but has total rule like Joseph did. Then came Moses who was treated as the Son of Pharoh but then brought the Israelites out of Egypt to freedom.


    May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,
    Tag
     
  15. sojeru

    sojeru just a Jew

    870
    +21
    Judaism
    well, there is a greatly authorized Orthodox Jewish book.
    its called Zohar
    It also does not use the word "trinity" however It does very clearly declare that Hashem in shown in manifestations of 3, also in explaining the daniel portion of the ancient of days and the son of man- the zohar explains this to be the "two" of Hashem.

    However, in the end, it said hashem is YHWH -dvar- YHWH
    there is a three manifestations- not three gods- BUT ONE
     
  16. avoicecrying

    avoicecrying New Member

    10
    +0
    The first use of the term trinity was in 325 AD at the council of Nicea. The group that formulated the nicean creed which is the first known document to describe this doctrine stated that there are three coequal coeternal coexistent " persons " in the "godhead". Now the bible I use KJV says that all the fulness of the Godhead is manifest in one person Jesus Christ. Nowhere does the bible ever refer to any other "persons" besides Jesus being that neither Father or Holy Ghost are names but rather are titles of God. For this reason Peter the foremost Apostle even though he was present at the recitation by the Lord in MT 28:19 on the day of Pentecost instructed the people to be baptized in THE NAME rather than just do a repeat after me formula. Now keep in mind that Peter had not only been given the keys to the kingdom by Jesus he also had just recieved the Spirit of Truth and he baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST. The reason he could do this was that THE NAME is singular ONE NAME covers all three aspects of God. Isnt Jesus called the EVERLASTING FATHER in the OT? And the Holy Ghost is referred to as Christ in you the hope of Glory. It is not by a longshot in error to say that the name Jesus is representative of all three not just one.
     
  17. Shamash Of Yeshua

    Shamash Of Yeshua Servant

    +45
    Single
    ...
     
  18. Aethelsige

    Aethelsige Regular Member

    83
    +1
    Messianic
    the word Na'aseh 'to make' in hebrew is 1st person masculine plural. I must ask if this verb is plural because of the subject (Elohim) or object (adam) in the sentence?
     
  19. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

    647
    +16
    Messianic
    Well, P4I, it's a very hard issue to get around coming from a Jewish background - that God is only one (and that he is trancendental). And then some Christians also say God really IS three, living in a relationship of sorts. Others disagree.
    Jesus himself said confusing things about it - for example he claimed to be God but he also claimed that he only did what his "father" told him. He also spoke of the Spirit as someone else ("he will take from what is mine," etc. etc.) and as himself "I will not leave you alone, I will come to you."
    I think therefore - personally - the deal is, the trinity is a way of expressing God and how he interacts with us in as simple a way as is possible. Not perfectly accurate, but something to hold onto.

    So for those who disbelieve in the Trinity on biblical grounds, while I disagree with the view, I can see where they came to their conclusions.

    Now if it's simply because the Talmud and the rabbis say God can't manifest... then I have an issue with it, since that is pretty contradictory to the scriptures. (and iirc wasn't a belief until folks wanted to refute christianity.)
     
  20. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    I know it may be beyond the scope of the thread, but here is a good link.

    http://praiseofglory.com/Stmaximus.htm/filioque.htm/

    God Bless,

    Neal
     
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