Trinity Bible Verses

Justin BT

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I am articulating this question very carefully, I am not interested in theological debates in this thread. This question is for specifically for people who agree with the Christian traditional teaching of Trinity:

What would be the minimum set of bible verses that you could provide a non-Christian, that, if you ask them to read and reflect upon those verses, the underlying concepts of trinity would be clear and obvious.​

There is no correct or incorrect answer, but personally, I would imagine that there would need to be Old Testament and New Testament verses. I wonder if it can be done with a small selection of verses.

What is the reason for this question? Honestly, general theological debates bore me. When it comes to theological matters, I've usually read all of the arguments from the various camps, subsequent discussion usually feels like a predictable play out of standard scripts that have occurred in the church for centuries. I am sure most of us are aware of the textual critical issues, the canonical issues, and the positions of various churches. What I am really interested is the result of deep reflection of the text itself.
 

Justin BT

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I am going to kick it off with a few reflections on a few thoughts based upon the verses listed in Wikipedia. Let me affirm the doctrine of trinity to make sure you are reading my thoughts in the correct light.

In my mind, a correct argument or thought process probably needs to begin with a good understanding of Jewish thought surrounding Deuteronomy 6:4-9:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength"
It us upon that back drop that I assume we must read the New Testament writings.

Matthew 28:19: Contrary to wikipedia, I am not convinced Matthew 28:19 is overly helpful. But I am very open to be convinced otherwise. Would a non-Christian who didn't grow up in a Christian home, (against the Backdrop of Deuteronomy 6:4-9) see this baptism creed as an equating of the three persons of the Trinity?

2 Corinthians 13:13: "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." I see this one as similar to the verse above. This verse definitely indicates a relationship, but not necessarily an equating in the thought of the early church.

What do you think? I am stirring a little bit just to help you understand my though process, so against that what verses do you feel are the best ones? There are definitely other verses that I could place here that I think support the Trinity, but I think I am more interested in hearing what others have to say.
 
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Jeshu

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The Son is The Fullness of God.

1 Colossians 1:15-20
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


God is Spirit and acknowledges The Son.

1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

God understands Himself in plural


Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Jesus says that when we see Him we see the Father.

John 14:9b-10
"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?"

Jesus teaches all three person of the God head as being God in and with us through faith.

John 14:15-18
"“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

And


Verse 23
" Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
 
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Mark Quayle

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I am articulating this question very carefully, I am not interested in theological debates in this thread. This question is for specifically for people who agree with the Christian traditional teaching of Trinity:

What would be the minimum set of bible verses that you could provide a non-Christian, that, if you ask them to read and reflect upon those verses, the underlying concepts of trinity would be clear and obvious.​

There is no correct or incorrect answer, but personally, I would imagine that there would need to be Old Testament and New Testament verses. I wonder if it can be done with a small selection of verses.

What is the reason for this question? Honestly, general theological debates bore me. When it comes to theological matters, I've usually read all of the arguments from the various camps, subsequent discussion usually feels like a predictable play out of standard scripts that have occurred in the church for centuries. I am sure most of us are aware of the textual critical issues, the canonical issues, and the positions of various churches. What I am really interested is the result of deep reflection of the text itself.
Well, that's part of the problem. A non-Christian won't be impressed by spiritually deep reflection of the text. There are many places where the each of the three demonstrates God-ness in their acts, power, intent and so on.
 
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What would be the minimum set of bible verses that you could provide a non-Christian, that, if you ask them to read and reflect upon those verses, the underlying concepts of trinity would be clear and obvious.

I would begin with Luke-Acts and the Gospel of John, add to that the other NT writings and then the OT as support (beginning with the Psalms, Prophets, and then the Torah to finish). The reason is this: the Trinity is not something arrived at by natural reason or explicitly recognized in the OT (generally, there are major exceptions and theology one might go into about this but generally). It is a new data-point brought into the world by the Lord Jesus and so we should begin with His teaching on it and then in the light of that interpret the OT for "all of it speaks of me" said He. So I would begin (this is a rough outline, there are so many verses that could be given but I am just giving a few):

Luke:

1:35 "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the one to be born will be called holy, the Son of God." [Trinity]

3:22 "the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came from heaven, 'You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.'" [Father speaks to Son primarily]

Acts:

5:3-4 "Ananias, for what reason has Satan filled your heart, that you lied to the Holy Spirit and kept back for yourself some of the proceeds of the piece of land? When it remained to you, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to people, but to God!" [Holy Spirit being God]

John:

1:1-14. I don't need to reproduce it here it's absurdly famous (for good reason).

5:17 "My Father is working until now, and I am working."

5:19 "For whatever the Father does, the Son also does." [Every single act of the Father the Son also does, they have the same acts, this is only possible if He is God in the Trinitarian sense, for having the act of making all creatures that exist He can not also be one]

14:17 "You know him [the Spirit], for he dwells with you and will be in you." [The Spirit dwells in them along with the Son and the Father, again the point of the Spirit having what the Son has including all the acts of God including the indwelling]

15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me." [Procession of the Spirit]

16:13-15 "But when he—the Spirit of truth—comes, he will guide you into all the truth. For he will not speak from himself, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will proclaim to you the things to come. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and will proclaim it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he takes from what is mine and will proclaim it to you." [The Spirit has what the Son has which is what the Father gave them, this includes the above]

Matthew:

28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." [They share one name]

Colossians:

2:9 "For in him [Jesus] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily..."

Psalms (using LXX numbering):

2:7 "The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee."

8:1 "O Lord our Lord, how admirable is thy name in the whole earth! For thy magnificence is elevated above the heavens." [See Matthew verse]

109:1 "The Lord said to my Lord..."

Isaiah:

48:16 "Draw near to me; hear this! I have not spoken in secrecy from the beginning; from the time it came to be, there I have been; And now the Lord Yahweh has sent me and his Spirit." [Trinity again]

Torah:

Gen 19:24 "Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven." [Father and Son having same acts again]

Every "Angel of the Lord" passage wherein the AOL speaks God's word and is worshipped as God. And even more broadly: every single time God is called "Lord" in the OT, for confessing that Christ is Lord (see Romans) is the name bestowed on Him by the Father above all things.
 
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BeyondET

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God or Holy Spirit doing a little healing as well.

Luke 8
44 She came up behind Jesus and touched the fringe of His cloak, and immediately her bleeding stopped.

45 “Who touched Me?” Jesus asked. But they all denied it. “Master,” said Peter, “the people are crowding and pressing against You.”

46 But Jesus declared, “Someone touched Me, for I know that power has gone out from Me.”
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I am articulating this question very carefully, I am not interested in theological debates in this thread. This question is for specifically for people who agree with the Christian traditional teaching of Trinity:

What would be the minimum set of bible verses that you could provide a non-Christian, that, if you ask them to read and reflect upon those verses, the underlying concepts of trinity would be clear and obvious.​

There is no correct or incorrect answer, but personally, I would imagine that there would need to be Old Testament and New Testament verses. I wonder if it can be done with a small selection of verses.

What is the reason for this question? Honestly, general theological debates bore me. When it comes to theological matters, I've usually read all of the arguments from the various camps, subsequent discussion usually feels like a predictable play out of standard scripts that have occurred in the church for centuries. I am sure most of us are aware of the textual critical issues, the canonical issues, and the positions of various churches. What I am really interested is the result of deep reflection of the text itself.

The minimum set? There isn't one since none of the New Testament books or letters were originally written with verses in mind.

In other words, looking for a minimum set (aka a kind of reductionism) of verses by which to extract the concept of the Trinity should be a hermeneutical "no-no" and we have to decide which of the books or letters we'll engage (or not engage) in their entirety.
 
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.Jeremiah.

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Honestly, general theological debates bore me

I agree.

I cannot answer your question, but looking from the other side, I would like to see only one very clear verse, supported by, let’s say 4 more from different authors.

I look forward to the answers here.
 
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This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
 
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Mark Quayle

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This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
Are you familiar with the term, "Johannine Comma"?
 
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BeyondET

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Are you familiar with the term, "Johannine Comma"?
what does a Comma change? here they are without all the Comma's

For there are three that bear witness in heaven the Father the Word and the Holy Spirit and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit the water and the blood and these three agree as one
 
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TheWhat?

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I'm not going to provide a minimum set. The list is expansive.
  • First and foremost, the authors of the gospels, being closest in proximity to Jesus and His witnesses, reported a large number of prophecies fulfilled by Jesus, and identified Him as the Logos.
  • "Logos" is used on numerous occasions in the LXX, the "bible" of the early christians.
  • A study of the prophets shows that the Word of YHWH speaks as God, with all authority.
  • Further, to the Word is attributed power to accomplish the Father's will (Isaiah 55:11).
  • We may reasonably conclude that the Father and Word operate together and inseparably since God does nothing without revealing it to His servants, the prophets (Amos 3:7). This is mirrored also in Luke 2:49. "Substance" in my reading of the english term is inadequate. In my view of homousianism, "Ousia" rendered as "Being" better describes the relationship between the Father and His Word.
  • That said we may also reasonably conclude that the Word of the Father, through whom all things were made (John 1:3) is as eternal as the Father Himself, lest we seek to alter God the Father who never changes.
  • Lastly, it follows that Jerusalem which killed the prophets according to Jesus, crucified also the same Word of the prophets, incarnate, rather than some other conception of "logos," although, if the "Logos" of the LXX is in reality the same "logos" of the Greek philosophers, this is would clearly be of interest to early Christianity and another area of study.
 
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Nuda Scriptura (naked Scripture, i.e., the Bible by itself) isn't a very good way of using Scripture. With the important point that Sola Scriptura and Nuda Scriptura are very different concepts.

The Scriptures, as well as the lived experience of the Church in its engagement with Scripture is what gets us to the doctrine of the Trinity.

There are lots of passages in Scripture that we understand, taking the totality of the biblical witness in light of the revelation of Jesus Christ, and the subsequent way in which the earliest Christians wrestled with those things, are the basis of Trinitarian thought.

We can point to Scripture that says there is only one God, that identifies the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit each as God, passages which both emphasize their unity as well as their distinctiveness.

But handing a non-believer a Bible with some passages highlighted isn't going to bring these ideas together in a coherent way, which the doctrine of the Trinity does. To get from point A to point B on this means getting into the theology.

It's very fine if you personally find theology boring; but it's simply impossible to discuss Christianity, or anything in the Bible, without also providing the theological framework (Christianity) in which the Bible is to be read and understood.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Mark Quayle

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what does a Comma change? here they are without all the Comma's

For there are three that bear witness in heaven the Father the Word and the Holy Spirit and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit the water and the blood and these three agree as one
The Greek doesn't usually use commas. And neither did John, even though he was a Jew.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Would the lack of Comma's change anything? the words are in the Greek right?.
It was meant as a joke. You are starting to sound serious. Well, yes, the Johannine comma is a serious issue, but... Now I'm confusing myself.

From what I understand, actually, the originals may or may not have had much punctuation. Apparently at one point the copies did not and later some punctuation was added to further copies. But that has only to do with my attempted humor, and nothing to do with the 'Johannine Comma'. Look it up on Wikipedia. Pretty well explained there.
 
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BeyondET

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It was meant as a joke. You are starting to sound serious. Well, yes, the Johannine comma is a serious issue, but... Now I'm confusing myself.

From what I understand, actually, the originals may or may not have had much punctuation. Apparently at one point the copies did not and later some punctuation was added to further copies. But that has only to do with my attempted humor, and nothing to do with the 'Johannine Comma'. Look it up on Wikipedia. Pretty well explained there.

there are a ton of punctuation's that are not in the originals even the chapter and verse numbering system wasn't in the originals haha..
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I am articulating this question very carefully, I am not interested in theological debates in this thread. This question is for specifically for people who agree with the Christian traditional teaching of Trinity:

What would be the minimum set of bible verses that you could provide a non-Christian, that, if you ask them to read and reflect upon those verses, the underlying concepts of trinity would be clear and obvious.​

There is no correct or incorrect answer, but personally, I would imagine that there would need to be Old Testament and New Testament verses. I wonder if it can be done with a small selection of verses.

What is the reason for this question? Honestly, general theological debates bore me. When it comes to theological matters, I've usually read all of the arguments from the various camps, subsequent discussion usually feels like a predictable play out of standard scripts that have occurred in the church for centuries. I am sure most of us are aware of the textual critical issues, the canonical issues, and the positions of various churches. What I am really interested is the result of deep reflection of the text itself.


I've done lots of reading and video watching on the topic. This subject is not really about proof texting but other things like how did the Second Temple Jews see their deity etc.

Today for instance we tend to use and think in terms of concepts like Monotheism when we think about the Judeo-Christian tradition etc. and while that concept is in Judaism with the Shema etc. It wasn't how the Jews thought of their religion (not being coined until the 1600s) Instead they thought contrasted their faith with the heathen polytheists etc.


Earlier Judaism was much more open to nuance in its monotheism aka there is a lot of weird stuff in the Old Testament that doesn't fit it that has to be rationalized away by the later rabbis of the Talmudic and post Talmudic eras. Anyway it is all that stuff, these weird little paradoxes that are really the early antecedents for the Trinity. Along with other things like how Hellenic concepts might describe and even explain some things going on in the text with people like Philo of Alexandria, and some of the later Church fathers.
 
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Justin BT

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Thank you everyone for your constructive posts!

The minimum set? ... looking for a minimum set (aka a kind of reductionism) of verses by which to extract the concept of the Trinity should be a hermeneutical "no-no"

I hear your point, proof texting is not good scholarship, your exhortation is correct if the question at hand was how to do great bible study. But advanced scholarship/study is not my intent here. But the intent of my question is to wonder what minimal set of verses could be use to speedily/concisely share basics of the faith with people who might not understand Christian terminology. I bet we can help people conceptualize and understand trinity without resorting to historical-grammatical hermeneutical techniques. (Admittedly some historical context is probably needed, people probably do need to understand the basic story arc of the bible and of Israel to understand some things)

Are you familiar with the term, "Johannine Comma"?

Yes, this is a great verse. From a practical perspective, because not all bibles contain this verse, Im not sure it is a verse I would focus on for a beginner — It would side-track the discussion into textual critical issues and questions regarding the transmission of the biblical text . Personally I think it is safer and easier to definitely arrive at Trinitarian thought without dependence on this verse.
 
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