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Trinity (3/1 or 3/3) look at the verses

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by Defender of the Faith 777, Apr 16, 2002.

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  1. Defender of the Faith 777

    Defender of the Faith 777 Well-Known Member

    +4
    United Ch. of Christ
    You may come on here and debate if you want, I just want to see what people hold to.

    3/3 Matthew 3:16-17, "The Father is greater than I", Jesus praying to His father

    3/1 Romans 9:5, Deuteronomy 6:4, and John 20:26 (that or :28; I can't remember)


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  2. TheUnknown

    TheUnknown Member

    120
    +0
    I believe more in Matt 3:16-17. I have a really hard time believing in the Trinity doctrine.
     
  3. Thinker

    Thinker Senior Veteran

    +304
    Agnostic
    Single
    The trinity was first mentioned as a theoretical concept circa AD 170. It was expounded upon by the early church father Tertulian, though his understanding of it was slightly different than the current one (gets into linguistics). From here, we get into politics and turmoil. The 3rd century was very rough on the roman empire; one long succession of coups, invasions, rebellions, and civil wars. During this period, many people turned to religion for solace, and christianity mushroomed as a result, going from a fringe sect to something on the order of 10% of the population. Then, under Constantine, christianity became legal, and christians became ever more numerous. However, once it was out in the open, doctrinal problems that had taken second or third place to mere survival came to the fore, and threatened to start a new religious war. The trinity was imposed, more or less from the top down to prevent this, and biblical verses found to support it. It is worth noting here that there is no single biblical passage which clearly states out the whole of the doctrine of the trinity. After a few generations, this imposed solution became doctrine. (this is the short and butchered version).
     
  4. VeraciousMaven

    VeraciousMaven Jesus Saves!

    753
    +2
    Well, here's what I think. There is the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit as one).

    John 4:24 "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
    - God and the Spirit are one.

    John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
    - Jesus and God are one.

    Thus, if God is Spirit and Jesus is God, then Jesus is Spirit. Voila, Trinity!
     
  5. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Thinker wrote: "After a few generations, this imposed solution became doctrine," in regards to the Trinity as accepted at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

    For the first 1500 years, orthodoxy in faith was determined by Ecumenical Councils, and it still is in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Acts records the first Ecumenical Council in Chapter 15. Here is verse 28:  

    For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

    The decision of Nicea became binding the instant the council was concluded in the same manner as the decision of the Church in Jerusalem did in 49 A.D. Notice that it is the Church by the Holy Spirit that declare the edicts listed to be "necessary". Before this Council, it was not revealed what a Christian had to do regarding the Law. Did a person have to be circumcised? Follow the dietary laws? It was here where the Holy Spirit spoke to us in no uncertain terms and let it be known in a definite, infalliable way that we were freed from them. Messengers were then sent out to spread the decision.

    The Canon of Scripture was decided about in the same way, by the Synod of 397 at Carthage, and was ratified by the Bishop of Rome, as per the norm. Here is a quote from the Synod, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon."

    Councils are not just men gathered together to "impose" doctrine, but to reveal by the aid of the Holy Spirit what is already true.

    Neal
     
  6. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
    +0
    John 14:28
    28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
    (KJV)

    I think this is the verse. First the all important word is "greater" (meizone) this is like a military term. As a Gerneral is greater than a private not better. The word Kreton (sp) which means better was not used. Jesus humbled himself and took on the roll of the son and obeys the Father.

    As for the counsel of Nicea. This is not where they adopted the doctrine but where they ratified a creed to defend the doctrine. The doctrine was taught by the early church fathers and before that, by the apostles.

    As for Thomas
    John 20:28
    28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    (KJV)

    Take a look at these verses
    1 Tim 3:16
    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
    (KJV)

    John 5:23
    23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
    (KJV)

    Matt 14:33
    33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
    (KJV)

    Notice this last one and ask yourself "Who are we to worship".........That's right...... GOD!!!!
     
  7. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    rkbo wrote: "As for the counsel of Nicea. This is not where they adopted the doctrine but where they ratified a creed to defend the doctrine. The dotrine was taught by the early church fathers and before that, by the apostles."

    Amen, sir, that is why I said,

    "Councils are not just men gathered together to 'impose' doctrine, but to reveal by the aid of the Holy Spirit what is already true."

    The question answered at Nicea,though,was about the nature of the Trinity, not just Arianism. From that point forward, though, anyone who taught a doctrine of the Nature of the Godhead different than that of Nicea was excommunicated. The Councils are about revealed truth. ALL of the doctrines revealed by God were true and taught before they were formally declared either to clarify a point of doctrine for the faithful, as in the Council of Jerusalem, or overcome a heresy, as is the case for Nicea.

    Where except the Church were the faithful to turn to see who they were to believe; the Arians or the Orthodox? The Bible didn't exist, and more than a few churches accepted non-canonical writings as authentic and inspired scripture, so an automatic appeal to Scripture wasn't feasible. It was the duty of the Council of Nicea to clear up any misconceptions in teaching, and to clarify exactly what the teaching concerning the Trinity was. So was the concept of the Trinity there, before Nicea...definately, as it was true, but was there a "Doctrine of the Trinity," explicitly formulated and required for belief before then...I don't believe there was.

    I hope you all have a wonderful night, and may Christ watch over you in your rest.

    Neal
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "I think this is the verse. First the all important word is "greater" (meizone) this is like a military term. "

    Well, if you stopped to think about it, yes God the father is greater then the Christ when he was on earth..why? Phil 2:5-8 because Christ humbled himself and gave it all up...fits right in with the trinity docterine.

    Okay thinker..when I read this "The trinity was imposed, more or less from the top down to prevent this, and biblical verses found to support it"

    I had a good laugh. The trinity was true LONNNGG before it was put into words at that council just like gravity was there, loonnngg before good ole Issac created his theory on it.
     
  9. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    "The trinity was true LONNNGG before it was put into words at that council just like gravity was there, loonnngg before good ole Issac created his theory on it."

    Amen and may the Peace of Christ be with you.

    Neal
     
  10. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
    +1
    As humans we need to label what we know. If we do not put words to ideas or truths or thoughts we can not communicate them to one another.
    The entire idea and truth of the Trinity is we see in the word of God that Jesus both was seperate from God and apart of God. When He was praying to the Father "in heaven" also when He was stating that the Father was greater than He and the one that people have seem to have forgotten and to be honest for the ones that do not believe the "Trinity" the whole fact that while on the cross Jesus made this statment;
    "-- King James
    Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

    What greater evidence to prove your position but I very rarly ever see anyone use that verse.

    Now we continue in His word and see that Jesus Himself makes the statement that He and the Father are One, when He allows Himself to be worshipped, lets not also forget John 1:1;
    -- King James
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


    We then can continue that right into the Holy Spirit, being sent yet God being Spirit.

    In these verses I think the entire truth for the word "Trinity" exsists;

    -- New King James
    John 14:16-23 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, "even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.'' Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?'' Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.


    Thats what was in my heart about this discussion and I just wanted to share it with everyone :) God Bless
     
  11. Adam2Adam

    Adam2Adam New Member

    11
    +0
    3/1.

    The Father is greater than who? Than God incarnate? In office, yes. But, the office is only for a trial. Without evil, no trial, and hence no office. Yet, God is triune: he is not a singularity (which is meaningless), he is fundamentally three "things". There is something to him and he is not simply "a being". However, it is misleading to call him three things; he is personal through and through. He is not a composite of things, much less a composite.

    None of these "things" are inseparable from the others, they are merely distinguishable. In one sense, this is like space, which has three distinguishable dimensions and yet these three dimensions are inseparable: you cannot, in reality, deal only in one dimension, but only in all three dimensions. If space is created, then God made space like this on purpose (as if he does anything carelessly).
     
  12. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
    +0
    Why is a day 24 hours ?

    Because God is a God of two of everything 12 hours night 12 hours day. He is not a God of triune, that is paganism --- He is a God of "two ". He is also a God of balance.

    First Adam - literal of this earth
    Last Adam - spiritual of heaven

    The Last Adam is the second man - I Corinth. 15:47 1st and 2nd --- no third !

    Born
    Born again - no third !

    Death
    Second death - Lake of fire - no third !

    Hot
    Cold - no third - lukewarm God will spue you out of his mouth.

    Celestrial - heavenly - spiritual
    Terrestrial - earthly - literal

    L I C - Hervey
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    and a partrige in a pear tree. Numbers don't mean a thing Hervey, they are just numbers to be manipulated anyway you want to manipulate them.
     
  14. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
    +1
    LOL well if you want to mess with numbers isn't God a God of sevens?

    -- New King James
    Genesis 2:2-3 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


    -- New King James
    Genesis 4:15 And the Lord said to him, "Therefore, whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him seven fold.'' And the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him.


    -- New King James
    Genesis 4:24 If Cain shall be avenged seven fold, then Lamech seven ty-seven fold.''

    -- New King James
    Genesis 7:2 "You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; "also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth. "For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.''

    -- New King James
    Genesis 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth.

    -- New King James
    Genesis 8:4 Then the ark rested in the seven th month, the seven teenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat.

    -- New King James
    Genesis 8:10 And he waited yet another seven days, and again he sent the dove out from the ark.

    -- New King James
    Genesis 21:28 And Abraham set seven ewe lambs of the flock by themselves.

    -- New King James
    Genesis 29:18 Now Jacob loved Rachel; so he said, "I will serve you seven years for Rachel your younger daughter.''

    -- New King James
    Genesis 33:3 Then he crossed over before them and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.

    -- New King James
    Genesis 41:2 Suddenly there came up out of the river seven cows, fine looking and fat; and they fed in the meadow. --

    New King James
    Genesis 41:3-7 Then behold, seven other cows came up after them out of the river, ugly and gaunt, and stood by the other cows on the bank of the river. And the ugly and gaunt cows ate up the seven fine looking and fat cows. So Pharaoh awoke. He slept and dreamed a second time; and suddenly seven heads of grain came up on one stalk, plump and good. Then behold, seven thin heads, blighted by the east wind, sprang up after them. And the seven thin heads devoured the seven plump and full heads. So Pharaoh awoke, and indeed, it was a dream.


    Now I have not even made it out of Genesis yet and not only that but I did not include all the geneology of people almost all ages given have 7 in them. So looks like we can take numbers and mulipulate them to exactly the outcome that we want huh?


    :) God Bless
     
  15. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
    +0
    Hervey there is 8hr day and 8 hr evening and 8 hr night. God is a God of 3.

    We live in 3 dimensions, length, width, depth.


    Gen 6:10
    10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
    (KJV)


    Gen 15:9
    9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
    (KJV)

    Gen 18:6
    6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
    (KJV)

    Gen 40:10
    10 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes:
    (KJV)

    Gen 40:19
    19 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.
    (KJV)

    Exod 15:22
    22 So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.
    (KJV)

    Exod 37:19
    19 Three bowls made after the fashion of almonds in one branch, a knop and a flower; and three bowls made like almonds in another branch, a knop and a flower: so throughout the six branches going out of the candlestick.
    (KJV)

    Deut 4:41
    41 Then Moses severed three cities on this side Jordan toward the sunrising;
    (KJV)

    Deut 19:2
    2 Thou shalt separate three cities for thee in the midst of thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it.
    (KJV)

    2 Sam 18:14
    14 Then said Joab, I may not tarry thus with thee. And he took three darts in his hand, and thrust them through the heart of Absalom, while he was yet alive in the midst of the oak.
    (KJV)

    IKing 7:4
    4 And there were windows in three rows, and light was against light in three ranks.
    (KJV)

    and on and on it goes. Put any number in your concordance and you get pages of references. Hervey you are still trading the truth for a lie. When will you submit to the Holy Spirit and not lean on your own understanding. Cause your own understanding is leaving you out of the loop.
     
  16. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    Goodness, this has gone off the end!

    Easiest "trinitarian" doctrine supporting verse: Col 2:9 "For in him dwelt all the fulness of the godhead bodily".

    We know people have a body, spirit, and soul. I tend to think then that God is father (soul) Son (body) Holy Spirit (spirit (obiously!))

    I had a whole big post on thes somewhere. I wonder if I saved it?
     
  17. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
    +0
    Amen Shane. I will add this
    John 10:38
    38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
    (KJV)

    John 14:9-11
    9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
    (KJV)

    2 Cor 5:19
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    (KJV)

    1 Tim 3:16
    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
    (KJV)

    Titus 2:13
    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    (KJV)

    I Jn 5:20
    20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
    (KJV)
     
  18. Adam2Adam

    Adam2Adam New Member

    11
    +0
    Reading Between The Errors



    If we fail the implicit,
    how can we stand in judgement
    of the explicit?
    If we fail the implicit,
    how can we learn
    anything
    until it is slammed into our chest
    and we see the front side
    face to face?
    There is a sense of truth unproven,
    yet we believe.
    We know something,
    even though we walk past it
    and then say that it is where we are.
    We are not the truth,
    but a copy.
     
  19. Adam2Adam

    Adam2Adam New Member

    11
    +0
    Hervey, you will notice that all of your pairs there are distinctions between one GREAT THING and ANOTHER. That last pair you give is of heaven and earth. This is obviously the pair of Creator/created. There is eternal truth (heavenly, spiritual) and then there is created truth (signature, or type).

    Nothing you have given there addresses God Himself Alone.
     
  20. Adam2Adam

    Adam2Adam New Member

    11
    +0
    The unwise, when faced with a problem that seems to him to be unassailable, thinks that he must come to a conclusion about it in relatively short order with his present and limited knowledge. In some cases, this means that he must admit logical defeat and join the side of the skeptic of the truth. But, logic is no substitute for keep-it-real knowledge (both the knowledge of what is in front of us and what is within us). As a result, man's philosophy is fallable, even to the extent that often what he is sure is plain truth is, in fact, false. There are more than two facets to any temporal problem---more than two angles from which to approach it.

    God is the God of common sense, but, if "common sense" is to be worth anything, then it cannot properly be defined as the 'intuitive' notions which a majority of meagerly-observant humans have in common, even if that majority is "a majority of one".
     
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