Tree of knowledge of good and evil.

[elopez]

The question I'm about to bring up was asked of me in another thread after I had made the comment that Adam and Eve were not ignorant of good but rather comprehended good. My main reasoning for this should be quite apparent and acceptable to the believer. God is good as His creation inherently was as well. As Adam and Eve experienced God and the rest of creation, they experienced good and thus had knowledge of it. My first question is specifically about this: how can one say that the first couple were ignorant of good when in fact God is good and all the rest of His creation was good? To me that is like saying Adam and Eve did not know God or any of His creation.

My second question is if it can be accepted that Adam and Eve did have knowledge of good, then how can it be said that they gained knowledge of good by eating the fruit? Even disregarding this, how can it be said that Adam and Eve gained knowledge of good by going against God's word? To me that would seem rather unwise and would not bring about any knowledge that is good itself or about anything that could be good.

Personally I find this to indicate that the tree of knowledge of good and evil did not literally contain fruit that had magical knowledge of morality, but represented going against God's command in general. What do you guys think? Was there something extraordinary about the fruit, or was it just fruit that was commanded to not be eaten?

 

[BrendanMark]

It was Knowledge of Good and Evil, that meant they would become like gods. It's the sin of Sophistry and Subjectivism, that Man is the measure of all things, and that we get to decide (or invent for ourselves!) what is good and what is evil. In doing so we turn away from God and God's moral (if not universal) authority.

 

[elopez]

It was Knowledge of Good and Evil, that meant they would become like gods. It's the sin of Sophistry and Subjectivism, that Man is the measure of all things, and that we get to decide (or invent for ourselves!) what is good and what is evil. In doing so we turn away from God and God's moral (if not universal) authority.

Are you saying that Adam and Eve were ignorant of good? If so, could you respond to the questions in the OP, as I find this thought rather conflicting.

 

[BrendanMark]

I am saying that they did not have the Knowledge of Good and Evil that would make them as gods, as the temptation says in full.

Once they did, they became self-conscious, as the consciousness and priority of Self over God and others is Sin that we constantly fall back into.

 

[elopez]

I am saying that they did not have the Knowledge of Good and Evil that would make them as gods, as the temptation says in full.

How do gods comprehend morality different than humans, though? I'm asking if they had any conception at all of good, so does them not knowing what good is that would make them as gods mean they were ignorant completely of good?

 

[OpenDoor]

Interesting question...

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
Genesis 3:6

How did Eve make this judgment?

 

[BrendanMark]

Gods determine good and evil - and that was the offer the serpent made. Up until then Adam and Eve may have lived and witnessed the Good - they did not attempt to determine or define it themselves for themselves.

 

[elopez]

Interesting question...

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
Genesis 3:6

How did Eve make this judgment?

What do you think? I've already shared my thoughts, so what are yours?

 

[OpenDoor]

What do you think? I've already shared my thoughts, so what are yours?

not sure yet

 

[elopez]

Gods determine good and evil - and that was the offer the serpent made. Up until then Adam and Eve may have lived and witnessed the Good - they did not attempt to determine or define it themselves for themselves.

What do you means Gods determined good and evil? Who are these 'gods' you speak of? I believe not only did Adam and Eve witness good but they also experienced it first hand so they were not ignorant of good.

 

[elopez]

not sure yet

Okay then, let me ask you another quick question while you think think this over. Prior to this were you under the assumption Adam and Eve were completely ignorant of good?

 

[OpenDoor]

Okay then, let me ask you another quick question while you think think this over. Prior to this were you under the assumption Adam and Eve were completely ignorant of good?

TBH I never thought about it before.

 

[BrendanMark]

What do you means Gods determined good and evil? Who are these 'gods' you speak of? I believe not only did Adam and Eve witness good but they also experienced it first hand so they were not ignorant of good.

I'm speaking in general - for every culture gods determined good and evil. In the Bible it speaks of Yahweh as being the highest of the gods/powers.

Once again, I said they were ignorant of determining good and evil for themselves and so become like gods. That's the full temptation and disobedience.

 

[OpenDoor]

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”
Genesis 3:22

This means it was not that way before, so I would presume that they did not know both good and evil, prior to eating the fruit.

 

[elopez]

I'm speaking in general - for every culture gods determined good and evil. In the Bible it speaks of Yahweh as being the highest of the gods/powers.

Once again, I said they were ignorant of determining good and evil for themselves and so become like gods. That's the full temptation and disobedience.

I feel like you're being evasive in answering my question. I get you think they could not determine good and evil for themselves, so does that mean they didn't know good at all?

 

[elopez]

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”
Genesis 3:22

This means it was not that way before, so I would presume that they did not know both good and evil, prior to eating the fruit.

Okay then can you answer the questions in the OP?

 

[NaLuvena]

The question I'm about to bring up was asked of me in another thread after I had made the comment that Adam and Eve were not ignorant of good but rather comprehended good. My main reasoning for this should be quite apparent and acceptable to the believer. God is good as His creation inherently was as well. As Adam and Eve experienced God and the rest of creation, they experienced good and thus had knowledge of it. My first question is specifically about this: how can one say that the first couple were ignorant of good when in fact God is good and all the rest of His creation was good? To me that is like saying Adam and Eve did not know God or any of His creation.

I think you're using the wrong phrase, my friend.

Adam and Eve were not ignorant.

They were innocent.

Ever notice that only the truly innocent (i.e. little children) can get away with not wearing clothes?

Yes!!! and after you stop laughing (I did when I typed this), consider it seriously...why did Jesus say that if we wanted to see the Kingdom of Heaven, we had to become like little children?

Adam and Eve were innocent, not ignorant.

My second question is if it can be accepted that Adam and Eve did have knowledge of good, then how can it be said that they gained knowledge of good by eating the fruit? Even disregarding this, how can it be said that Adam and Eve gained knowledge of good by going against God's word? To me that would seem rather unwise and would not bring about any knowledge that is good itself or about anything that could be good.

The innocent does not have a reference of good/evil within himself/herself. God placed that within the fruit.
Innocent people need to be told what is good, and what is bad. That's the basis upon which we have a different set of rules for minors who commit crimes, because the assumption is that they do not comprehend what their actions really mean.

When they ate, they lost their innocence and what was the first (mortified!!) reaction they had?

GOSH, I'M NAKED!!!

Personally I find this to indicate that the tree of knowledge of good and evil did not literally contain fruit that had magical knowledge of morality, but represented going against God's command in general. What do you guys think? Was there something extraordinary about the fruit, or was it just fruit that was commanded to not be eaten?

I think it was "magical" fruit, considering God also had a tree that had fruit that would allow anyone who ate it to live forever.

My friend, since you ask these questions (and I enjoy participating in your threads ) here's one, that crossed my mind when I was pondering this a few years back as well... 2 questions actually....

1. IF God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, why would He put it within easy reach, and allow the serpent to come and tempt Eve?

2. How can one be like God, unless the person knows what is good
and what is bad, like God?

Hope that gives you more to think about, my friend...

 

[BrendanMark]

I mean they did not have the subjectivist/Sophist/Humanist perspective of determining good and evil for themselves. I think I am saying the obvious - it is in no way evasion. They lived and witnessed the Good that God created until the Temptation - then they turned from God to determine good and evil the way they thought fit according to the human Self, and immediately became self-conscious and tried to hide from God.

 

[elopez]

I mean they did not have the subjectivist/Sophist/Humanist perspective of determining good and evil for themselves. I think I am saying the obvious - it is in no way evasion. They lived and witnessed the Good that God created until the Temptation - then they turned from God to determine good and evil the way they thought fit according to the human Self, and immediately became self-conscious and tried to hide from God.

So they had knowledge of good before eating the fruit? I feel like this is a simple yes-no.

 

[OpenDoor]

I feel like this is a simple yes-no.

Wouldn't that be nice