Translation of Psalm 104:4

[Vanellus]

KJV: Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
ESV: he makes his messengers winds, his ministers a flaming fire
NIV: He makes winds his messengers, flames of fire his servants.

So some not insignificant differences. At issue here is that one Hebrew word used here can be translated as either wind or spirit; and another one can be translated as either messenger or angel. I think the context can be thought to support either view on this verse

e.g for the ESV:
Bless the LORD, O my soul!
O LORD my God, you are very great!
You are clothed with splendor and majesty,
covering yourself with light as with a garment,
stretching out the heavens like a tent.
He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters;
he makes the clouds his chariot;
he rides on the wings of the wind;
he makes his messengers winds,
his ministers a flaming fire.
He set the earth on its foundations,
so that it should never be moved.

This verse is referred to in the NT in Heb 1:
In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”

Which would seem to support the KJV for Ps 104:4, but the writer of Hebrews is copying the Septuagint (LXX), whereas I believe the KJV mostly follows the Masoretic text of the OT.

But there are other differences here. The NIV inverts the order from the Hebrew text so we have
NIV: He makes winds his messengers
ESV: he makes his messengers winds
Hebrew: עֹשֶׂ֣ה מַלְאָכָ֣יו רוּחֹ֑ות
Literal: spirits/winds his angels/messengers who makes

Is there much difference in meaning between the ESV and NIV here? It would be great to find the thoughts of the contemporary translators on this verse but I haven't been able to find these. I've also been trying to get a handle on word order in OT Hebrew poetry. The impression I have got is that it isn't too well understood - certainly not by me!

A further difference is that the NIV uses a plural for flames of fire as a consequence of the change in word order.

As this is just one verse I don't want this to become a thread comparing versions. I want this thread to focus on the translation of this verse and the issues it raises e.g. word order in Hebrew verse and use of the LXX in the NT.

 

[Quentin]

Psalm 104:4 states that God makes “his angels spirits, his ministers a devouring fire.” Some translations would render this: “Who makest the winds thy messengers, fire and flame thy ministers,” or similarly. (RS, JP, AT, JB) Such translation of the Hebrew text is not inadmissible (compare Ps 148:8); however, the apostle Paul’s quotation of the text (Heb 1:7) coincides with that of the Greek Septuagint and harmonizes with the rendering first given. (In the Greek text of Hebrews 1:7, the definite article [tous] is used before “angels,” not before “spirits [pneuʹma·ta],” making the angels the subject being discussed.) Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) says: “It is to be presumed that [Paul], who had been trained in the knowledge of the Hebrew language, would have had a better opportunity of knowing its [referring to Psalm 104:4] fair construction than we can; and it is morally certain, that he would employ the passage in an argument as it was commonly understood by those to whom he wrote—that is, to those who were familiar with the Hebrew language and literature.”—Compare Heb 1:14.

Spirit Psalm 104:4

This is what a quick search found about the word being translated spirit at Psalm 104:4.

 

[Vanellus]

This webpage is blocked on my computer

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

The Septuagint has 104:4 as
ὁ ποιῶν τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ πνεύματα καὶ τοὺς λειτουργοὺς αὐτοῦ πῦρ φλέγον

He makes his angels spirits of his, and the ministers of his a burning fire
FYI, this is my own very loose translation off the top of my head.

IMHO, the NIV takes a little more freedom with translation but still acceptable for general discussions by English readers.

Changing the order of the words is a little less problematic as at least Greek does not necessarily have to follow the standard Subject-Verb-Object.