Transgender people

FaeryChild

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Churches should acknowledge that there are men, there are women and then there are people who do not really fit into either category. In addition to all that has been said about showing love and compassion (which I echo) it is also important to note that a Biblical case can and should be made for gender variance.

There have been people who do not fit within the binary in all times, contexts, cultures, etc. and in reference to Judeo-Christianity, the best comparison is that of the eunuch (as has already been said). In addition to Matthew 19 which has already been referenced, I would also like to point out in Galations, Paul does say that in Christ there is no more male and female (etc.) which can understood as a Biblical precept for not forcing people into such a rigid binary. Furthermore, the prophet Isaiah says that eunuchs who keep the commands can be blessed and in Acts, of course, there is the case of the Ethiopian eunuch. But of course, Matthew 19 (which I will say more about in a second) is the passage which says the most, identifying that some are born eunuch, some are made that way by others and others choose it for the kingdom of God. Jesus' view seems to be positive and should absolutely eliminate once and for all the connotation that being eunuch is, in and of itself, sinful.

But of course, all people are sinners, but because of what we do - not because of who we are. And of course, it is possible to do something out of a sinful reason whereas it may otherwise be okay. Let's examine this with Jesus' three-tiered example:

*Those who are born that way. That would be intersex people. There are literally dozens of chromosomal defects that can happen that people have no choice over and these can result in a wide variety of genital abnormalities. Some intersex people are comfortable with their bodies as they are (literally not fitting into the binary) and others desire surgical changes. In either case, the choice is theirs and theirs alone. But one thing is for sure, the intersexed do not choose to be that way. Intersex people have always existed - and many cultures have had a third option for those who fit this description (it is a true shame that the English language does not have a personal & subjective way to refer to a third gender because it needs one).

*Based on personal accounts and scientific findings, it is likely that trans people are, in a sense, psychologically intersex in the sense that they are born that way and do not choose it - which explains why so many just know when they are like 5 yrs old or even younger - its like when the child learns about gender for the first time they just know something is off - and it says a lot that this knowing happens so young during a time of such innocence. It is incomprehensible to me that innocent children, who are arguably closer to God than us adults, could somehow be "choosing" some awful sin. No, it is ingrained into who they are in the same sense that other basic factors of personality are ingrained. Furthermore, trans children show up in many different environments, rich ones, safe ones, Christian ones, evangelical ones, etc...

*Post operative trans people probably likely fall into a fusion of the first category of "born that way" and the second category of "made that way by others". While modern science has made a lot of progress in terms of what is / isn't possible, forms of surgery have always existed and they have been done for different reasons. Here, it is important to note the why seems to matter more than the procedure itself. For example, if someone has their genitals destroyed for the sake of initiation into an idolatrous religious practice then it is right they would be prohibited from entering the assembly of the LORD (as decreed by the Law of Moses). Have there been historical examples where people modified their genitalia for idolatrous and/or perverse reasons? Yes. Are there still times when people do things for the wrong reasons? Yes. But as per Matt 19, the act of being made that way by others is not, in and of itself, sinful. Thus, post op trans people, while sinners in the sense that all of us are sinners, have not sinned by having surgery done.

*Then, of course, those who choose this path for the kingdom of heaven do so not out of reasons of gender, sexuality or biology but rather as a means of completely renouncing gender/sexuality in order to focus on spiritual formation. This is the path that the church father Origen chose and so have others.

So, to me, this clears the discussion regarding people's bodies, how they are born and what is done to them for various reasons. People are people and everyone should be treated with equality and dignity, as beloved children of God and of sinners in deep need of redemption. This is who we are all as people, and having a variant gender, in and of itself, should not be seen as any different than someone's race. No person is sinning due to their skin colour, but all of us need a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit.

This leaves two questions: what gender should trans people be regarded as? and to whom should trans people marry?

As to the first, people still tend to fall into the binary as saying a person is either/or. Thus, MTFs are either "still men" or have become "women" and likewise FTMs are either "still women" or have become "men". The truth is twofold: 1) this way of categorizing is not very helpful but 2) it is absolutely essential for doing anything in our society. Every thing we do is gendered. I cannot go down the street to Walgreens and get Ginger Ale for my kid's stomach bug without being gendered as female, referred to with a female pronoun and having others interact with me as a female, which, lets be honest, is going to be different than if they were interacting with a man. One would think either mom or dad making a quick run to the store is not a gendered activity, but it actually is (gendered). The truth is that intersex and trans people are probably neither M nor F. I simply don't believe that transwomen were ever truly men or that transmen were ever truly female. I don't think we are seeing men become women or women becoming men. I think we are seeing people who do not fit into the binary making personal choices and decisions in order to get to the point where they can have the dignity of doing something so basic as going to the store for Ginger Ale without there being some kind of gender-induced dysphoric awkwardness. People need to be allowed to do basic living human things like go shopping and use facilities without being challenged in the same sense that black people should not be pushed into a state of anxiety over whether or not they use the right water fountain. Why can't we just see a person and register "human being - created and loved by God? " But we live in a very gendered society in which almost everything requires having either a male or a female gender. Not all cisgendered people are comfortable with how gender works in society and so if someone who is biologically and happily one sex can still feel a form of gender dysphoria - how much so for the trans and intersexed? The only mental illness these people have is a form of PTSD inflicted upon them by an uncaring rigid non-humane anti-Christian society. Thus, since we've said people have to live within these social-bounds of male or female, we have to be willing to let those who are actually neither conform to whichever they can do with the least amount of anxiety. This is why the intersexed should be allowed to grow up and decide who they are and how they want to live their lives. This is why trans people should be allowed to legally change documents, names, etc.

But finally, and this is the REAL question...to whom should trans and/or intersex people be married? On this issue, Matthew 19 seems to be a double edged sword. Though it seems obvious that Jesus is accepting of those who are eunuchs for previously said reasons, it is also obvious that Jesus does so in the context of discussing why some may choose celibacy and why celibacy itself may be chosen over Jesus' strict anti-divorce views. This is also spirals directly into the discussion of gay marriage, even though intersex and trans issues are NOT gay in origin (gender identity is NOT sexual orientation!). But this is so due to the fact that if one sees marriage as being only between one man and one woman - then the implication is that everyone else should remain celibate.

And thus, I turn this question back to you all - should (Christian) trans people, at any/all stages of transition remain celibate? If Matthew 19 affirms the existence of the gender variant, what does it say about marriage, divorce, celibacy, etc for these people?

I think the real question is this one of marriage and, as such, it is intrinsically drawn into the gay marriage debate even though the "T" in many ways doesn't fit with the LGB. But still, the outcome is the same: if one has a positive view of same sex marriage, then it would follow that trans people should marry whomever they want (consenting adults) and likewise if gays should remain celibate due to an inability to partake in a marriage between one man and one woman - then that would also imply that celibacy is the spiritual path for the gender variant. I apologize for being so loquacious, I guess I just really feel there is a lot here which needs to be addressed.
 
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StephanieSomer

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Churches should acknowledge that there are men, there are women and then there are people who do not really fit into either category. In addition to all that has been said about showing love and compassion (which I echo) it is also important to note that a Biblical case can and should be made for gender variance.

There have been people who do not fit within the binary in all times, contexts, cultures, etc. and in reference to Judeo-Christianity, the best comparison is that of the eunuch (as has already been said). In addition to Matthew 19 which has already been referenced, I would also like to point out in Galations, Paul does say that in Christ there is no more male and female (etc.) which can understood as a Biblical precept for not forcing people into such a rigid binary. Furthermore, the prophet Isaiah says that eunuchs who keep the commands can be blessed and in Acts, of course, there is the case of the Ethiopian eunuch. But of course, Matthew 19 (which I will say more about in a second) is the passage which says the most, identifying that some are born eunuch, some are made that way by others and others choose it for the kingdom of God. Jesus' view seems to be positive and should absolutely eliminate once and for all the connotation that being eunuch is, in and of itself, sinful.

But of course, all people are sinners, but because of what we do - not because of who we are. And of course, it is possible to do something out of a sinful reason whereas it may otherwise be okay. Let's examine this with Jesus' three-tiered example:

*Those who are born that way. That would be intersex people. There are literally dozens of chromosomal defects that can happen that people have no choice over and these can result in a wide variety of genital abnormalities. Some intersex people are comfortable with their bodies as they are (literally not fitting into the binary) and others desire surgical changes. In either case, the choice is theirs and theirs alone. But one thing is for sure, the intersexed do not choose to be that way. Intersex people have always existed - and many cultures have had a third option for those who fit this description (it is a true shame that the English language does not have a personal & subjective way to refer to a third gender because it needs one).

*Based on personal accounts and scientific findings, it is likely that trans people are, in a sense, psychologically intersex in the sense that they are born that way and do not choose it - which explains why so many just know when they are like 5 yrs old or even younger - its like when the child learns about gender for the first time they just know something is off - and it says a lot that this knowing happens so young during a time of such innocence. It is incomprehensible to me that innocent children, who are arguably closer to God than us adults, could somehow be "choosing" some awful sin. No, it is ingrained into who they are in the same sense that other basic factors of personality are ingrained. Furthermore, trans children show up in many different environments, rich ones, safe ones, Christian ones, evangelical ones, etc...

*Post operative trans people probably likely fall into a fusion of the first category of "born that way" and the second category of "made that way by others". While modern science has made a lot of progress in terms of what is / isn't possible, forms of surgery have always existed and they have been done for different reasons. Here, it is important to note the why seems to matter more than the procedure itself. For example, if someone has their genitals destroyed for the sake of initiation into an idolatrous religious practice then it is right they would be prohibited from entering the assembly of the LORD (as decreed by the Law of Moses). Have there been historical examples where people modified their genitalia for idolatrous and/or perverse reasons? Yes. Are there still times when people do things for the wrong reasons? Yes. But as per Matt 19, the act of being made that way by others is not, in and of itself, sinful. Thus, post op trans people, while sinners in the sense that all of us are sinners, have not sinned by having surgery done.

*Then, of course, those who choose this path for the kingdom of heaven do so not out of reasons of gender, sexuality or biology but rather as a means of completely renouncing gender/sexuality in order to focus on spiritual formation. This is the path that the church father Origen chose and so have others.

So, to me, this clears the discussion regarding people's bodies, how they are born and what is done to them for various reasons. People are people and everyone should be treated with equality and dignity, as beloved children of God and of sinners in deep need of redemption. This is who we are all as people, and having a variant gender, in and of itself, should not be seen as any different than someone's race. No person is sinning due to their skin colour, but all of us need a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit.

This leaves two questions: what gender should trans people be regarded as? and to whom should trans people marry?

As to the first, people still tend to fall into the binary as saying a person is either/or. Thus, MTFs are either "still men" or have become "women" and likewise FTMs are either "still women" or have become "men". The truth is twofold: 1) this way of categorizing is not very helpful but 2) it is absolutely essential for doing anything in our society. Every thing we do is gendered. I cannot go down the street to Walgreens and get Ginger Ale for my kid's stomach bug without being gendered as female, referred to with a female pronoun and having others interact with me as a female, which, lets be honest, is going to be different than if they were interacting with a man. One would think either mom or dad making a quick run to the store is not a gendered activity, but it actually is (gendered). The truth is that intersex and trans people are probably neither M nor F. I simply don't believe that transwomen were ever truly men or that transmen were ever truly female. I don't think we are seeing men become women or women becoming men. I think we are seeing people who do not fit into the binary making personal choices and decisions in order to get to the point where they can have the dignity of doing something so basic as going to the store for Ginger Ale without there being some kind of gender-induced dysphoric awkwardness. People need to be allowed to do basic living human things like go shopping and use facilities without being challenged in the same sense that black people should not be pushed into a state of anxiety over whether or not they use the right water fountain. Why can't we just see a person and register "human being - created and loved by God? " But we live in a very gendered society in which almost everything requires having either a male or a female gender. Not all cisgendered people are comfortable with how gender works in society and so if someone who is biologically and happily one sex can still feel a form of gender dysphoria - how much so for the trans and intersexed? The only mental illness these people have is a form of PTSD inflicted upon them by an uncaring rigid non-humane anti-Christian society. Thus, since we've said people have to live within these social-bounds of male or female, we have to be willing to let those who are actually neither conform to whichever they can do with the least amount of anxiety. This is why the intersexed should be allowed to grow up and decide who they are and how they want to live their lives. This is why trans people should be allowed to legally change documents, names, etc.

But finally, and this is the REAL question...to whom should trans and/or intersex people be married? On this issue, Matthew 19 seems to be a double edged sword. Though it seems obvious that Jesus is accepting of those who are eunuchs for previously said reasons, it is also obvious that Jesus does so in the context of discussing why some may choose celibacy and why celibacy itself may be chosen over Jesus' strict anti-divorce views. This is also spirals directly into the discussion of gay marriage, even though intersex and trans issues are NOT gay in origin (gender identity is NOT sexual orientation!). But this is so due to the fact that if one sees marriage as being only between one man and one woman - then the implication is that everyone else should remain celibate.

And thus, I turn this question back to you all - should (Christian) trans people, at any/all stages of transition remain celibate? If Matthew 19 affirms the existence of the gender variant, what does it say about marriage, divorce, celibacy, etc for these people?

I think the real question is this one of marriage and, as such, it is intrinsically drawn into the gay marriage debate even though the "T" in many ways doesn't fit with the LGB. But still, the outcome is the same: if one has a positive view of same sex marriage, then it would follow that trans people should marry whomever they want (consenting adults) and likewise if gays should remain celibate due to an inability to partake in a marriage between one man and one woman - then that would also imply that celibacy is the spiritual path for the gender variant. I apologize for being so loquacious, I guess I just really feel there is a lot here which needs to be addressed.


Speaking only for myself, as a transsexual, in regard to the question of whom to marry... I am celibate, by choice. One of the main reasons I made this choice is based on Paul's advice to avoid anything which might cause a weaker brother or sister to sin by inducing them to be judgmental of my choices.

However, if I should ever decide to look for a spouse, I have already realized the only way to do so and still not cause anyone to sin. I could marry a transman.

How could anyone complain? We would both have been born the opposite to what we now are, and would still be opposite. No matter how anyone wanted to look at it, there could be no other determination made but that it would be heterosexual.

But, as things stand now, I have no intention of seeking a partner. I don't even date.
 
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GenetoJean

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Speaking only for myself, as a transsexual, in regard to the question of whom to marry... I am celibate, by choice. One of the main reasons I made this choice is based on Paul's advice to avoid anything which might cause a weaker brother or sister to sin by inducing them to be judgmental of my choices.

However, if I should ever decide to look for a spouse, I have already realized the only way to do so and still not cause anyone to sin. I could marry a transman.

How could anyone complain? We would both have been born the opposite to what we now are, and would still be opposite. No matter how anyone wanted to look at it, there could be no other determination made but that it would be heterosexual.

But, as things stand now, I have no intention of seeking a partner. I don't even date.

The only person I have been on a date with, after I started transition, is a trans-man.
 
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Cute Tink

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Thank you for a well written, thoughtful and kind post. I wanted to draw particular attention to this:

Why can't we just see a person and register "human being - created and loved by God? "

I wish more people would think this way. :thumbsup:

As to the rest, I know you were speaking to Christians about the marriage portion, but I'll just say this: there is much diversity in who and what I find attractive. I could go in any direction with any sex/gender mix. I would just say one thing to anyone who would feel any relationship I am in is inappropriate - if God has an issue with the person I commit myself to, then let God express it to me and mind your business in the meantime.
 
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StephanieSomer

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Do you believe the gospel is a call to repentance and the forgiveness of sins?


Yes, I most emphatically do believe so.

Where you and I differ is on the determination of what is sin. That is not up to me. Or you. That is God's prerogative. And His Word is replete with many definitions of sinfulness. Being transsexual isn't in there. Anywhere. Not even close.

To fail to repent of sin is exceedingly sinful. Conversely, to require repentance of that which is NOT sin, is equally sinful.

Isa 5:20, 21

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And prudent in their own sight!"


Note that calling evil good is equal to calling good evil. I base my assertion of a requirement for repentance for that which is not demonstrated to be sin on that concept.
 
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As a future servant leader in Christ's body, we are called as Christians to recognize the face of our Lord on each person and see the immortal light and love within all. Therefore, we are to unconditionally include, welcome, celebrate and affirm all God's children- gay, lesbian, bi, transgender, straight, ect within the larger world and in the life of the church- this includes ordination.
There is a constant wave of discussion on this website about homosexuality, gays in the church, SSM, etc (however one sided many such conversations are due to site rules)...but there is not much talk about the T in LGBT.

In the few talks I've seen (online or in person), it seems as those these individuals receive a blanket condemnation from Christians - because you're either a man or woman, etc.

How should the Church treat transgender individuals? What role can/should these individuals have?
 
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Ted Lang

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How should the Church treat transgender individuals? What role can/should these individuals have?

They should teach them that God did not make them that way and He has provided for deliverance so they can be set free from those thoughts and feelings that many have accepted as being of God when it's actually from the god of this world.

If this doesn't work... in the end, God Himself will sort things out based on what He has already said in His Word on this topic. He did not indicate He is a fan...
 
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Ted Lang

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As a future servant leader in Christ's body, we are called as Christians to recognize the face of our Lord on each person and see the immortal light and love within all. Therefore, we are to unconditionally include, welcome, celebrate and affirm all God's children- gay, lesbian, bi, transgender, straight, ect within the larger world and in the life of the church- this includes ordination.

How bout the child molester??? What about the animal molester???

Where's the love :confused:

If you are going to be inclusive... shouldn't you really be inclusive?

What about the rapist? Didn't God make them that way?
 
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How bout the child molester??? What about the animal molester???

Where's the love :confused:

If you are going to be inclusive... shouldn't you really be inclusive?

What about the rapist? Didn't God make them that way?

How unintelligent.
 
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Ted Lang

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How unintelligent.

Really? Why? Aren't they too people God loves?

Don't people who like children have feelings? They think God made them the way they are and they would like some love from you folks who are standing up for sexual minorities... why don't you?

They even have an organization for this, although I've never heard of an advocate organization for rapists. That would be awkward for somebody.
 
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StephanieSomer

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They should teach them that God did not make them that way and He has provided for deliverance so they can be set free from those thoughts and feelings that many have accepted as being of God when it's actually from the god of this world.

If this doesn't work... in the end, God Himself will sort things out based on what He has already said in His Word on this topic. He did not indicate He is a fan...


Wrongo. He DID create me this way. I don't suffer from delusions or wrong thoughts, as you seem to think I do. It's been demonstrated that transsexuals have brains designed, (yes designed), as the opposite sex. So, their brains are wired opposite their bodies.

Your overly simplistic views of the world and God's work are really something to pity.
 
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Ted Lang

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It's been demonstrated that transsexuals have brains designed, (yes designed), as the opposite sex. So, their brains are wired opposite their bodies.

No, actually it's been proven that when one embraces thoughts and imaginations and believes they are true and sticks with it... the brain changes.

It has never been proven thru DNA study that anybody has a predisposition to be anything other than the gender they are the day they pop out of their momma's belly. Even liberal scientists have no proof.

What's too bad is... not accepting God's Word as literal. So, apparently there are two that claim to be God... one of this world and One that is not of this world.
 
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