Transformative Experience, Rational Decision Making, and L.A. Paul's Vampire Offer

[public hermit]

In life we sometimes have to make decisions about potentially life transforming experiences. Should we marry or no? Should we have children? Should I pursue this particular religious path? Unlike my choice of breakfast cereal, these kinds of decisions are "high stake" decisions. That is, my choice will significantly affect the kind of life I have.

Laurie Paul is a professor of philosophy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and has developed the following thought experiment to highlight salient features that potential transformative life decisions entail:

We're going to pretend that modern-day vampires don't drink the blood of humans; they're vegetarian vampires, which means they only drink the blood of humanely farmed animals. You have a one-time-only chance to become a modern-day vampire. You think, "This is a pretty amazing opportunity, do I want to gain immortality, amazing speed, strength, and power? But do I want to become undead, become an immortal monster and have to drink blood? It's a tough call." Then you go around asking people for their advice and you discover that all of your friends and family members have already become vampires. They tell you, "It is amazing. It is the best thing ever. It's absolutely fabulous. It's incredible. You get these new sensory capacities. You should definitely become a vampire." Then you say, "Can you tell me a little more about it?" And they say, "You have to become a vampire to know what it's like. You can't, as a mere human, understand what it's like to become a vampire just by hearing me talk about it. Until you're a vampire, you're just not going to know what it's going to be like."

One of the issues with making life transforming decisions concerns a lack of knowledge. As Paul's vampire offer highlights, one cannot know what such a life entails until one commits to it. This brings up the issue if rational decision making. How does one make a rational choice when they don't know, short of experience, everything such a choice will entail? One might do a cost/benefit analysis, sure. But, what one cannot know is if they will regret their choice, until they have the requisite experience to know if the choice, for them, is regrettable?

The other issue this brings up is our dependence on the testimony of others. When making life transforming decisions, we can listen to the testimony of others, but that still does not do much in the way of helping us know if it is a fit for us. It seems only experience will do that. So, it looks like, no matter which way we cut it, making decisions concerning transformative experiences involves an act of faith.

One more quote from Paul: "The question you need to ask yourself is how could you possibly make a rational decision about whether or not to become a vampire? You don't know, and you can't know what it's like. You can't know what you'd be choosing to do if you became a vampire, and you can't know what you're missing if you pass it up. This would be a problem if we faced these choices on a regular basis because what it suggests is that there is a principled, philosophical reason why, when faced with this big choice, we would be unable to reach our epistemic gold standard."

What are your thoughts? Do you see a way around this idea that there is no real way to make a rational choice when it comes to transformative experiences? What is the value of other's testimony when it comes to such decisions? What has been your experience with life transforming decisions?

L.A. Paul: "The Transformative Experience" | Edge.org

 

[zippy2006]

I'd become a vampire for sure. I don't even require the non-human-blood disclaimer.

Honestly though, I think that irreversible decisions are rare and becoming rarer. Want to get married? Get engaged first. Want to get engaged? Co-habitate first. Want to buy a dog? Rent one first. Want to enter a religious Order? Try the novitiate first, and then enter into temporary vows for a few years. A trial period is a pretty standard feature of modern life.

Having children might be a good exception, but often one gets tastes of that in family life with siblings or nieces and nephews. The head-first plunge is a lost art. Kids these days don't even know its name: the sailor's dive.

 

[SkyWriting]

In life we sometime have to make decisions about potentially life transforming experiences. Should we marry or no? Should we have children? Should I pursue this particular religious path? Unlike my choice of breakfast cereal, these kinds of decisions are "high stake" decisions. That is, my choice will significantly affect the kind of life I have.

Laurie Paul is a professor of philosophy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and has developed the following thought experiment to highlight salient features that potential transformative life decisions entail:

We're going to pretend that modern-day vampires don't drink the blood of humans; they're vegetarian vampires, which means they only drink the blood of humanely farmed animals. You have a one-time-only chance to become a modern-day vampire. You think, "This is a pretty amazing opportunity, do I want to gain immortality, amazing speed, strength, and power? But do I want to become undead, become an immortal monster and have to drink blood? It's a tough call." Then you go around asking people for their advice and you discover that all of your friends and family members have already become vampires. They tell you, "It is amazing. It is the best thing ever. It's absolutely fabulous. It's incredible. You get these new sensory capacities. You should definitely become a vampire." Then you say, "Can you tell me a little more about it?" And they say, "You have to become a vampire to know what it's like. You can't, as a mere human, understand what it's like to become a vampire just by hearing me talk about it. Until you're a vampire, you're just not going to know what it's going to be like."

One of the issues with making life transforming decisions concerns a lack of knowledge. As Paul's vampire offer highlights, one cannot know what such a life entails until one commits to it. This brings up the issue if rational decision making. How does one make a rational choice when they don't know, short of experience, everything such a choice will entail? One might do a cost/benefit analysis, sure. But, what one cannot know is if they will regret their choice, until they have the requisite experience to know if the choice, for them, is regrettable?

The other issue this brings up is our dependence on the testimony of others. When making life transforming decisions, we can listen to the testimony of others, but that still does not do much in the way of helping us know if it is a fit for us. It seems only experience will do that. So, it looks like, no matter which way we cut it, making decisions concerning transformative experiences involves an act of faith.

On more quote from Paul: "The question you need to ask yourself is how could you possibly make a rational decision about whether or not to become a vampire? You don't know, and you can't know what it's like. You can't know what you'd be choosing to do if you became a vampire, and you can't know what you're missing if you pass it up. This would be a problem if we faced these choices on a regular basis because what it suggests is that there is a principled, philosophical reason why, when faced with this big choice, we would be unable to reach our epistemic gold standard."

What are your thoughts? Do you see a way around this idea that there is no real way to make a rational choice when it comes to transformative experiences? What is the value of other's testimony when it comes to such decisions? What has been your experience with life transforming decisions?

L.A. Paul: "The Transformative Experience" | Edge.org

It's too bad we don't have a philosophy forum into which to place this thread.

I'm not a third shift person. I eat blueberries and mixed nuts for breakfast about half the time.

"Do you see a way around this idea that there is no real way to make a rational choice when it comes to transformative experiences?"

What your vision is for your future determines every choice you make.

If you have no vision then you are like a sailboat with no rudder. If you are OK with that, then you are like a person on an inflated inner tube floating with the river current. It might be an enjoyable afternoon in the sun, or a violent death in the rapids. Check with your river guide and they can give you a heads-up in some cases.

 

[public hermit]

What your vision is for your future determines every choice you make.

That's true. But, the force of her thought experiment is not causal, but epistemic. I agree that vision, in a significant sense, determines choice. But, vision does not give the requisite knowledge that experience does. What one lacks is the experience to inform reasoned decision making.

 

[grasping the after wind]

A vegetarian would not drink the blood of any animal humanely farmed or not. Poor scenario inventing when it contradicts itself. All that is needed to fix it is to change vegetarian to non cannibalistic. Then it doesn't even matter how the animals are farmed as long as humans are not included.
As to the question, a leap of faith is always necessary to take a life altering decision without experience. However, if one is dissatisfied with the results one can alter one's life once again as often as necessary.

 

[public hermit]

A vegetarian would not drink the blood of any animal humanely farmed or not. Poor scenario inventing when it contradicts itself.

I think she means "vegetarian" for vampires, not humans. But, yeah, I get your point.

As to the question, a leap of faith is always necessary to take a life altering decision without experience.

Right, that's the point. Faith is necessary. As she puts it, the "epistemic gold standard" of rationality is not available. Or, maybe it doesn't matter it's not available?

 

[Strathos]

As long as I don't sparkle.

 

[SkyWriting]

That's true. But, the force of her thought experiment is not causal, but epistemic. I agree that vision, in a significant sense, determines choice. But, vision does not give the requisite knowledge that experience does. What one lacks is the experience to inform reasoned decision making.

That's why there are mentoring, coaching, and mastermind groups.

But as I said, I'm an early riser who like the sun.
I'm not a late night person.
I like the food I eat now.
I've already planned to die.

There are scores of reasons I can make a choice now, even with limited knowledge of the future "benefits" or what they might be.
A mature person can operate on "Gut" feelings. Or morality.

 

[SkyWriting]

The other issue this brings up is our dependence on the testimony of others. When making life transforming decisions, we can listen to the testimony of others, but that still does not do much in the way of helping us know if it is a fit for us.

I avoid poorly rated restaurants. It has a HUGE effect on my enjoyment eating out and even helps me avoid food poisoning. Well reviewed restaurants are a BIG fit for me. Especially over low rated ones.

 

[public hermit]

I avoid poorly rated restaurants. It has a HUGE effect on my enjoyment eating out and even helps me avoid food poisoning. Well reviewed restaurants are a BIG fit for me. Especially over low rated ones.

Okay, but if you have a less than satisfactory meal, life goes on virtually unchanged. Those are low stakes. What if you are considering a truly life altering decision? The testimony of others is helpful, but the stakes are high. Is testimony enough to make a rationally informed decision? Perhaps? Whatever the case, you wont know if it's for you until after the life altering effects have occurred. Despite your "rational" choice it could be a mistake, a regret.

 

[Tom 1]

In life we sometime have to make decisions about potentially life transforming experiences. Should we marry or no? Should we have children? Should I pursue this particular religious path? Unlike my choice of breakfast cereal, these kinds of decisions are "high stake" decisions. That is, my choice will significantly affect the kind of life I have.

Laurie Paul is a professor of philosophy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and has developed the following thought experiment to highlight salient features that potential transformative life decisions entail:

We're going to pretend that modern-day vampires don't drink the blood of humans; they're vegetarian vampires, which means they only drink the blood of humanely farmed animals. You have a one-time-only chance to become a modern-day vampire. You think, "This is a pretty amazing opportunity, do I want to gain immortality, amazing speed, strength, and power? But do I want to become undead, become an immortal monster and have to drink blood? It's a tough call." Then you go around asking people for their advice and you discover that all of your friends and family members have already become vampires. They tell you, "It is amazing. It is the best thing ever. It's absolutely fabulous. It's incredible. You get these new sensory capacities. You should definitely become a vampire." Then you say, "Can you tell me a little more about it?" And they say, "You have to become a vampire to know what it's like. You can't, as a mere human, understand what it's like to become a vampire just by hearing me talk about it. Until you're a vampire, you're just not going to know what it's going to be like."

One of the issues with making life transforming decisions concerns a lack of knowledge. As Paul's vampire offer highlights, one cannot know what such a life entails until one commits to it. This brings up the issue if rational decision making. How does one make a rational choice when they don't know, short of experience, everything such a choice will entail? One might do a cost/benefit analysis, sure. But, what one cannot know is if they will regret their choice, until they have the requisite experience to know if the choice, for them, is regrettable?

The other issue this brings up is our dependence on the testimony of others. When making life transforming decisions, we can listen to the testimony of others, but that still does not do much in the way of helping us know if it is a fit for us. It seems only experience will do that. So, it looks like, no matter which way we cut it, making decisions concerning transformative experiences involves an act of faith.

One more quote from Paul: "The question you need to ask yourself is how could you possibly make a rational decision about whether or not to become a vampire? You don't know, and you can't know what it's like. You can't know what you'd be choosing to do if you became a vampire, and you can't know what you're missing if you pass it up. This would be a problem if we faced these choices on a regular basis because what it suggests is that there is a principled, philosophical reason why, when faced with this big choice, we would be unable to reach our epistemic gold standard."

What are your thoughts? Do you see a way around this idea that there is no real way to make a rational choice when it comes to transformative experiences? What is the value of other's testimony when it comes to such decisions? What has been your experience with life transforming decisions?

L.A. Paul: "The Transformative Experience" | Edge.org

It's too bad we don't have a philosophy forum into which to place this thread.

Bungee jumping or dropping through a cavern into a pool you can’t see comes to mind lol. The journey changes something about you and however scared you were at the beginning you are glad you did it in the end. I could never have guessed or even imagined just what exactly the end result would be of some of life’s major decisions, I think all you have at the decision point are some ideas that often have to be revised along the way.

 

[SkyWriting]

Okay, but if you have a less than satisfactory meal, life goes on virtually unchanged. Those are low stakes. What if you are considering a truly life altering decision? The testimony of others is helpful, but the stakes are high. Is testimony enough to make a rationally informed decision? Perhaps? Whatever the case, you wont know if it's for you until after the life altering effects have occurred. Despite your "rational" choice it could be a mistake, a regret.

I don't have such regrets. Ever. There is nothing I can do that
is not a component of my future successes. It's logically impossible
to make a wrong choice. Assuming one survives it.

There are a number of girls I could have married starting in 9th grade, and things would have been different. So what? I'd be somewhere different than I am. So what? I may be in jail now, Or dead now. Or had 9 kids. Maybe I'd marry into Royalty. And then abandoned the post and left the royal family.

It that the fairy tale life? To marry royalty....then leave?

No thanks. I'm good.

 

[muichimotsu]

In life we sometimes have to make decisions about potentially life transforming experiences. Should we marry or no? Should we have children? Should I pursue this particular religious path? Unlike my choice of breakfast cereal, these kinds of decisions are "high stake" decisions. That is, my choice will significantly affect the kind of life I have.

Laurie Paul is a professor of philosophy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and has developed the following thought experiment to highlight salient features that potential transformative life decisions entail:

We're going to pretend that modern-day vampires don't drink the blood of humans; they're vegetarian vampires, which means they only drink the blood of humanely farmed animals. You have a one-time-only chance to become a modern-day vampire. You think, "This is a pretty amazing opportunity, do I want to gain immortality, amazing speed, strength, and power? But do I want to become undead, become an immortal monster and have to drink blood? It's a tough call." Then you go around asking people for their advice and you discover that all of your friends and family members have already become vampires. They tell you, "It is amazing. It is the best thing ever. It's absolutely fabulous. It's incredible. You get these new sensory capacities. You should definitely become a vampire." Then you say, "Can you tell me a little more about it?" And they say, "You have to become a vampire to know what it's like. You can't, as a mere human, understand what it's like to become a vampire just by hearing me talk about it. Until you're a vampire, you're just not going to know what it's going to be like."

One of the issues with making life transforming decisions concerns a lack of knowledge. As Paul's vampire offer highlights, one cannot know what such a life entails until one commits to it. This brings up the issue if rational decision making. How does one make a rational choice when they don't know, short of experience, everything such a choice will entail? One might do a cost/benefit analysis, sure. But, what one cannot know is if they will regret their choice, until they have the requisite experience to know if the choice, for them, is regrettable?

The other issue this brings up is our dependence on the testimony of others. When making life transforming decisions, we can listen to the testimony of others, but that still does not do much in the way of helping us know if it is a fit for us. It seems only experience will do that. So, it looks like, no matter which way we cut it, making decisions concerning transformative experiences involves an act of faith.

One more quote from Paul: "The question you need to ask yourself is how could you possibly make a rational decision about whether or not to become a vampire? You don't know, and you can't know what it's like. You can't know what you'd be choosing to do if you became a vampire, and you can't know what you're missing if you pass it up. This would be a problem if we faced these choices on a regular basis because what it suggests is that there is a principled, philosophical reason why, when faced with this big choice, we would be unable to reach our epistemic gold standard."

What are your thoughts? Do you see a way around this idea that there is no real way to make a rational choice when it comes to transformative experiences? What is the value of other's testimony when it comes to such decisions? What has been your experience with life transforming decisions?

L.A. Paul: "The Transformative Experience" | Edge.org

It's too bad we don't have a philosophy forum into which to place this thread.

It's similar to other examples, like immortality in a broader notion, but honestly, I don't see how the experience of things you attribute as part of reality is the same as something we can demonstrate and investigate scientifically, assuming vampires remotely worked like they do in fiction.

It's not like there aren't plenty of instances where they are effectively able to be investigated and, while there would be a certain limit in regards to the psychological aspects or experiential variables, the irreversible nature is such that you would know the consequences far more than situations involving an afterlife or such.

 

[jayem]

I'd become a vampire for sure. I don't even require the non-human-blood disclaimer.

Honestly though, I think that irreversible decisions are rare and becoming rarer. Want to get married? Get engaged first. Want to get engaged? Co-habitate first. Want to buy a dog? Rent one first. Want to enter a religious Order? Try the novitiate first, and then enter into temporary vows for a few years. A trial period is a pretty standard feature of modern life.

Having children might be a good exception, but often one gets tastes of that in family life with siblings or nieces and nephews. The head-first plunge is a lost art. Kids these days don't even know its name: the sailor's dive.

I agree. In real life, many so-called "life-transforming" decisions have some degree of reversibility. Some are fairly easy--like changing one's school, or college major, or educational goals. Some are more difficult, like changing careers. Some could be selfish, cruel, and shameful --like dumping a partner, a spouse, or your family. True, some things can't be undone--like killing someone (or yourself) or having a limb amputated. But a lot of things can be restored, given enough time and motivation.

 

[public hermit]

It's similar to other examples, like immortality in a broader notion, but honestly, I don't see how the experience of things you attribute as part of reality is the same as something we can demonstrate and investigate scientifically

I see what you're saying. But is rational decision making the same as scientific investigation and demonstration? I will have to go back and look at the article, because I'm not sure she lays out what she means by "rational."

 

[public hermit]

In real life, many so-called "life-transforming" decisions have some degree of reversibility.

It does seem the irreversibility of her vampire example is not really comparable to most real life transformative experiences. I don't know that irreversibility is the main feature she is trying to get at, but the simple fact that our decision making process is hampered by one key fact: lack of experience. And, that coupled with the fact that the testimony of others is not as helpful as one might hope. Here is another example she gives:

"I've never tried a durian fruit. If you've tried a durian before, then bear with me. You can probably remember back to before you'd tried durian, and for those of you who haven't tried durian, we're in the same epistemic boat. The thing to know about durian is it's an exotic Southeast Asian fruit; it's very distinctive. One important chef says, "The only way to describe its taste is 'indescribable.'" The thought is, until you've tasted a durian fruit, you can't know what it tastes like. There are various evocative descriptions people have: "Eating vanilla ice cream by a sewer" or "French kissing a dead rat." These evocative descriptions are interesting, but they're not going to give you the information that you might like to have, namely, what it's like to taste a durian. The only way that you can know what it's going to be like for you is to taste one."

 

[public hermit]

There are a number of girls I could have married starting in 9th grade, and things would have been different. So what? I'd be somewhere different than I am. So what? I may be in jail now, Or dead now. Or had 9 kids. Maybe I'd marry into Royalty. And then abandoned the post and left the royal family.

Is there really no difference between a life that results from considered decisions, and a life in jail? I liked your statement that every experience is simply part of your road to future success, so long as you survive. I think that's a helpful attitude to have. But, let's be honest, not every life choice is on par as far as fulfillment in life is concerned. If that were the case, then the life of a serial killer would be just as fulfilling as one dedicated to the good of others. Right? Is life lived in a drunken stupor commensurate with a life of sober achievement? Do our choices not matter at all?

 

[SkyWriting]

Is there really no difference between a life that results from considered decisions, and a life in jail? I liked your statement that every experience is simply part of your road to future success, so long as you survive. I think that's a helpful attitude to have. But, let's be honest, not every life choice is on par as far as fulfillment in life is concerned. If that were the case, then the life of a serial killer would be just as fulfilling as one dedicated to the good of others. Right? Is life lived in a drunken stupor commensurate with a life of sober achievement? Do our choices not matter at all?

I know a number of people who went through the drugged stupor stage. Both personally and in society. They embrace their past strongly as the foundation of where they are now.

Does it matter? Sure. One of my friends "fried" his brain and has never recovered his ability to be productive.

Do I want to be Tiger Woods, or do I not? Yes and no. Do you see any regrets in scripture? I don't.

 

[public hermit]

I know a number of people who went through the drugged stupor stage. Both personally and in society. They embrace their past strongly as the foundation of where they are now.

Yeah, that goes back to your idea that everything you do is a component to your future success. Which, again, is a great way of looking at it.

 

[muichimotsu]

I see what you're saying. But is rational decision making the same as scientific investigation and demonstration? I will have to go back and look at the article, because I'm not sure she lays out what she means by "rational."

Long term consequences are likely more difficult to ascertain when we're talking about making a decision granting you immortality in some sense. It's not unlike the sacrifices in fiction that a character makes to gain immense power, though those are usually shortlived in nature. But absolute rationality is tricky when dealing with abstract concepts and even in terms of the concrete, our understanding can be mistaken in one form or another