Traditional Latin Mass Group and the Child Abuse Scandal

benedictaoo

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Who is the "we" in your comment?

Christians... we are the blame for not being compassionate and not understanding the cross they bare.

we drove them to the priesthood...

at what point do the individuals take full responsibility?

There is no non guilty by reason of gay insanity here.
 
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benedictaoo

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but they have not and in all likelihood, won't be.

The poor baby Bishops are being removed form saying high Mass and cristized for mishandling... (how about for committing a crime) and even reassinged to the Vatican... ooooh they're really being held accountable.

This is the problem and why folks are mad but others want to use quotes from Mary and and make all these claims that Satan and hate is fueling the media to lie on the pope and everything else.

Is it all possible that folks just want justice served?
 
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MoNiCa4316

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This is the problem and why folks are mad but others want to use quotes from Mary and and make all these claims that Satan and hate is fueling the media to lie on the pope and everything else.
Benedicta, if you want to talk about me or accuse me of something, please at least use my name. I find it interesting how Im the enemy now when I'm trying to defend the Church... alrighty... I'm NOT defending the priests who abused children..but the Church *as a whole*, and Pope Benedict
 
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benedictaoo

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You have made false statements pertaining to me a few times and I blew them off.

You said I used to (past tense) defend the Church?? I still defend it and am defending it NOW against creeps in the Church bringing the Church down.

You said I'm condemning the pope and now you claim I'm condemning all priest and bishops everywhere...

These are extreme statements and frankly I'm owed an apology.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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You have made false statements pertaining to me a few times and I blew them off.

You said I used to (past tense) defend the Church?? I still defend it and am defending it NOW against creeps in the Church bringing the Church down.

I said this because all of your posts were about how horrible the scandal is, and I agree that it is horrible, but I think we should also defend the Church (as a whole), and say what is good about it too... because there are many who want to make it look like there's only evil in it (I'm referring to people who hate Catholicism)

If I have said something false about you, I am sorry:hug:

You said I'm condemning the pope

I think at one point we were talking about him, and you were saying how he was involved in the coverup, and I said he is not. But I don't know, maybe I'm remembering wrong and this discussion was with another person at OBOB.

and now you claim I'm condemning all priest and bishops everywhere...

are you referring to the other thread? Because I did not say that there, I explained what I meant

These are extreme statements and frankly I'm owed an apology.

I'm sorry for the things I said that were false. :hug: but I did not say in the other thread that you are condemning all priests and bishops; I was talking about the media.

to be honest I don't really understand your position. You said:

others want to use quotes from Mary and and make all these claims that Satan and hate is fueling the media to lie on the pope and everything else.

well isn't the media lying about the Pope? or would you agree that the Pope is guilty?

God bless
 
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benedictaoo

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Monica, i accept you apology.

well isn't the media lying about the Pope? or would you agree that the Pope is guilty?

are they? I don't know.

Is he guilty? I don't know... I really don't. In Germany, I read he was informed of an evaluation about a priest who was advised to be kept far away from children, he sent him to another parish to serve.

Is that a lie? Don't know.

When in Rome, it's said he knew all about the Boston scandals, did he send that letter saying to keep it quit or be excommunicated?

Don't know.
 
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benedictaoo

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okay, but I personally believe that Pope Benedict is innocent :)

Innocent of what? never knowing about one single incident of abuse that was being covered up?

You really think he never knew of not even one incident that was being covered up?

It's not what did he know but rather what was he capable of doing that he may not have done...

I don't know but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and see where he goes with this now.

I believe he may have had is hands tied. But that says some things weren't right with the Church.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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Monica, i accept you apology.

:hug:

Innocent of what? never knowing about one single incident of abuse that was being covered up?

You really think he never knew of not even one incident that was being covered up?

It's not what did he know but rather what was he capable of doing that he may not have done...

I don't know but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and see where he goes with this now.

I believe he may have had is hands tied. But that says some things weren't right with the Church.

well I just don't believe that he sinned in the matter :) either he tried to do something and was prevented, or we're not given all the information.. for example, in one of the cases, the priest was already removed from his duties by the diocese, and the Bishop asked the Pope if he should be laicized as well, and the Pope took his time answering but the priest was no longer a threat to anyone... or, in another case, (the priest who molested the deaf boys) - he was already dying when he was found out... so I don't believe that Pope Benedict did anything wrong on purpose, even if he made a mistake.

I was reading about how he met up with abuse victims on Sunday, and I think he's genuine about wanting to reform the Church.
 
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benedictaoo

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:hug:



well I just don't believe that he sinned in the matter :) either he tried to do something and was prevented, or we're not given all the information.. for example, in one of the cases, the priest was already removed from his duties by the diocese, and the Bishop asked the Pope if he should be laicized as well, and the Pope took his time answering but the priest was no longer a threat to anyone... or, in another case, (the priest who molested the deaf boys) - he was already dying when he was found out... so I don't believe that Pope Benedict did anything wrong on purpose, even if he made a mistake.

I was reading about how he met up with abuse victims on Sunday, and I think he's genuine about wanting to reform the Church.

But you see, this is what has people upset because.. and I know you are young and only been Catholic a short time but as these scandals keep popping up over the years, you'll get tired of them too.

It's the idea that these men went unpunished for so many years, had free reign as if they were above justice and free access to children. It's not right and it will never be right and you mean to tell me that no one could get a grip on the situation and stop it? That tells us how incredibly messed up and abusive things were in a institution that belongs to God.

This purging is necessary if we are going to get rid of the evil that is blatantly, obviously in there.

Maybe Benedict needs to be made uncomfortable in order for him to realize that the old way of sweeping it all under the rug, protecting one another is not going to be accepted anymore.

These priest and bishops ever do something this criminal and evil again- they best be turned over and not 40 years later either when they are dying and no one can do anything to them.

it's a travesty of justice, and that is why folks are not accepting this.
 
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Fantine

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Of course, when we fail to note that the abuse charges are really about predatary homosexuals and not about pedophilia at all, we tend to end up blaming the wrong things--like attempts to link the Mass that gave us great Saints for centuries to a scandal caused by the few sinful men who were not living up to their vows to God.

The Mass that "gave us great Saints for centuries" didn't create great saints because it was said in Latin. Nor did it create great saints because the priest faced away from the people. Nor did it create great saints because people received Communion on the tongue while a sharp edged golden plate was placed under their chins.

The Mass that gave great saints is no different from the Mass we have today in its essence.

One thing I have always noticed about the great saints is their ability to adapt to change and new circumstances. Many were missionaries. Many faced situations in their lives that required them to make drastic changes. They didn't become saints by clinging to forms and practices that were no longer relevant or meaningful to the societies in which they lived.

There is a chapter in Acts where the disciples learn that it is not necessary for Christian converts to go through the Jewish procedure of circumcision....Change. New circumstances.

I think that is a good analogy for the TLM. It worked for previous generations, and maybe it created saints. But it is no longer necessary, except as an option for those who enjoy that worship form.
 
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AMDG

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people received Communion on the tongue while a sharp edged golden plate was placed under their chins.

Goodness me, you are aware that these actions are done in the Novus Ordo Mass as well? Surely you don't think that Vatican II changed the normal way Communion is received or gave us license to disrespect Jesus and trample Him underfoot if the Host accidently falls to the floor?
 
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MoNiCa4316

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But you see, this is what has people upset because.. and I know you are young and only been Catholic a short time but as these scandals keep popping up over the years, you'll get tired of them too.

It's the idea that these men went unpunished for so many years, had free reign as if they were above justice and free access to children. It's not right and it will never be right and you mean to tell me that no one could get a grip on the situation and stop it? That tells us how incredibly messed up and abusive things were in a institution that belongs to God.

This purging is necessary if we are going to get rid of the evil that is blatantly, obviously in there.

Maybe Benedict needs to be made uncomfortable in order for him to realize that the old way of sweeping it all under the rug, protecting one another is not going to be accepted anymore.

These priest and bishops ever do something this criminal and evil again- they best be turned over and not 40 years later either when they are dying and no one can do anything to them.

it's a travesty of justice, and that is why folks are not accepting this.

I never said child abuse is right.

About Pope Benedict, I believe what I believe. I think he is suffering a lot over this too.

God bless
 
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MoNiCa4316

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The Mass that "gave us great Saints for centuries" didn't create great saints because it was said in Latin. Nor did it create great saints because the priest faced away from the people. Nor did it create great saints because people received Communion on the tongue while a sharp edged golden plate was placed under their chins.

it was reverent..

what do you mean - "a shart edged golden plate was placed under their chins"? you made it sound like some torture device :( this is to prevent the Host from falling; it shows respect for the Blessed Sacrament. When I go to the Latin Mass they give out Communion this way, and it adds to the sense that we are truly receiving something holy.

The Mass that gave great saints is no different from the Mass we have today in its essence.

One thing I have always noticed about the great saints is their ability to adapt to change and new circumstances. Many were missionaries. Many faced situations in their lives that required them to make drastic changes. They didn't become saints by clinging to forms and practices that were no longer relevant or meaningful to the societies in which they lived.

but they were all strict on reverence. St Padre Pio was a big supporter of the Latin Mass, at the time of VII.

There is a chapter in Acts where the disciples learn that it is not necessary for Christian converts to go through the Jewish procedure of circumcision....Change. New circumstances.

that's old covenant vs new covenant...

not all change is good. Some is unecessary. Moving the Tabernacle to the corner of the church was unnecessary.

The way they planned Novus Ordo, it was supposed to be much like the TLM only in the vernacular. Why move the Tabernacle, remove altar rails, replace traditional music with folk music and guitars (in some parishes), have everyone receive Communion in the hand from Eucharistic ministers, etc? that wasn't how NO was originally planned. If a parish stays close to the rubrics, the Mass will resemble the TLM more than the NO we're used to.

Also, I read how Pope Benedict supports receiving Communion kneeling, and on the tongue.. and he likes traditional sacred music (ie: chant)...

There are other things, for example, the inaccurate translation for the Consecration.. I'm glad they're working on the new translation because things like that do affect the spiritual reality....
 
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BAFRIEND

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You have made false statements pertaining to me a few times and I blew them off.

You said I used to (past tense) defend the Church?? I still defend it and am defending it NOW against creeps in the Church bringing the Church down.

You said I'm condemning the pope and now you claim I'm condemning all priest and bishops everywhere...

These are extreme statements and frankly I'm owed an apology.

no you are not deserved an apology, are you trying to offend my intelligence on purpose ?

time and time again bene generalizes the entire clergy of the Church in her statements and makes cruels baseless remarks against the Pope as she just did above- how could bene possibly know the heart or actions of the pope

and then the kicker- blaming Christians for forcing homosexuals into the priesthood- looks like bene wants to cover all bases no matter how weak an argument can be thrown out
 
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Fitch

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For the record, I don't think she said that we have forced gays into the priesthood. But this is a good example of how things can get garbled in online discussions.

No one has said that.

What I did say, though, is that Catholics, in the way we have historically implemented and passed on the church's teaching on sexuality (with hammers rather than with caring hands) must bear some responsibility for creating a culture in which emotionally stultified young men come to believe that the priesthood can magically fix them.

As I recall, Benedicta disagreed with me.
 
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Fantine

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it was reverent..

what do you mean - "a shart edged golden plate was placed under their chins"? you made it sound like some torture device :( this is to prevent the Host from falling; it shows respect for the Blessed Sacrament. When I go to the Latin Mass they give out Communion this way, and it adds to the sense that we are truly receiving something holy.

When I was a child it gave me decapitation nightmares and made me think of Marie Antoinette on the guillotine.
 
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