Total Depravity?

[Ioustinos]

Hi all


I was thinking about this in class: according to the doctrine of total depravity, man in his nature is powerless to know God, desire God, or come to God. So here is my question: If man is totally deprived, how is it that so many seek some type of "god" during their lifetime? Is this some "common grace" that God gives to man that allows him to recognize the existance of a "god"?



Thanks

 

[Gabriel]

Romans 1: 20&21 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God nor were they thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish heart were darkened."  Creation cries out to us that there is a creator.  God is evident yet not all trurn to Him.  Through man's need to seek out or worship, many false idols are manifest.  Even money, power and fame are among these.  We are totally depraved in that we would not seek out or understand the need for a relationship with the True God were it not for His grace poured upon his elect.

 

[Ioustinos]

Hi Gabriel

So would I be correct in saying that natural man recognizes the existance of a "god" yet due to his total depravity he only seeks an experience or fellowship with this "god" with selfish or sinful intentions?

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
Hi Gabriel

So would I be correct in saying that natural man recognizes the existance of a "god" yet due to his total depravity he only seeks an experience or fellowship with this "god" with selfish or sinful intentions?

Good choice of words, yes.  For instance, the atheist that works in a soup kitchen feeding the homeless.  Does he/she do it for the homeless or to make him/herself feel good?  I would ask the same about Muslims as their religion is totally works based.  They recognize the need to worship and seek out a god, yet they pervert it to rely on their own works.  They are not working to glorify Him, they are working to get themselves into heaven.

 

[LouisBooth]

I would have to agree, though I have seen some "moral heathens" in the past that might make me rethink that postion.

 

[Received]

People who are partakers of a religion that focuses solely on good works partake of a religion that focuses on morality. And if you focus on morality too much, you will miss life; and if you miss life, then there's no chance of getting eternity. If you focus on your actions, you will get good actions and the same heart; if you set your mind on things above, you will get everything below. That is how Chrsitianity differs from other religions. Not about works, but about love, and love is not a burden, but is the brilliant glimmer left from the workmanship of a God who is nothing but it, that others may marvel at the grandeur of His being.

blessings,

John

 

[Reformationist]

I cannot add much that Jes and Gabe haven't already said other than to say that the reason that everyone worships in some form is because that is the reason we are created, to worship.  In it's purest form, with God's grace, we worship Him.  Without His grace we substitute something in place of Him; money, totem pole, ourselves, sex, drugs, a statue, etc.

Those verses in Romans 1 posted by Gabe exemplify God's general revelation to all men.

God bless

 

[new2calvin]

I have to agree as well. Man is totally depraved from conception.(Psalm 51:5) We have an inablility to come to the true God on our own. They may think they are worshiping "god" but in fact they are worshiping sinful flesh or even satan in a different form. What people have to understand is that in the beginning Adam was righteous and holy, but after the fall he went, and therefore we went with him, into a state of total un-righteousness and unholiness. So mans wish is to feel better about oneself so therefore I believe that they created the various religions of the world to attain this goal. Only with God's hep we can be saved. This realization should bring about a sorrow of the soul within you , and only by God's grace can that sorrow be quenched .
  God Be Praised!!!

 

[sola fide]

I wanted to say one thing about this topic that I have learned from my experience in witnessing to the lost.
People have no desire for God Himself. They only have a desire for the benefits that a god can bring to the table....you know peace, love, etc. They love the benefits, but they hate the submission and worship.

Grace to you.

 

[seebs]

I have always been a bit confused, because of a couple of things:

1. Something must be involved in choosing to seek God's grace, perhaps?
2. I know too many, as Louis puts it, "moral heathens".

I sometimes wonder if we are taking as literal and perfectly generalizable truth something which was originally more hyperbole to make a point...

 

[Ben johnson]

Creation cries out to us that there is a creator. God is evident yet not all turn to Him.

Awesome point! "The heavens decare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork!"



John6:44 says, "NO one can come to Me, unless the Father draws them"---
The GREEK here, is "HELKUO"---draw, DRAG FORCIBLY.

And yet, in John12:32, Jesus Himself says: "I will draw all men to Myself"---here again, the word is "HELKUO".

We may be deprived. We may be TOTALLY deprived. But God reveals Himself to EACH, in enough measure that he or she CAN make a conscious decision!

Generally "total depravity" equates to "limited atonement"---the belief that salvation is offered only to SOME. Scripture does not bear this out:
"SO THEN as condemnation came to all men (through Adam's sin), EVEN SO (in the SAME WAY) came justification to all men (through Jesus-on-the-Cross)." Rm5:18

But ghe abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness must be RECEIVED! Rom5:17

"He Himself i sthe propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the WHOLE WORLD!" Holos Kosmos, ENTIRE WORLD! 1Jn2:2

"God ...desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth" 1Tim2:4

These (and many others) verses refute "Limited Atonement", clearly showing salvation is FOR EVERYONE.

Rom1 (and others) show that each person IS given a choice---to follow Christ, or not. Has been that way from the beginning---see Deut30:15ff, "I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore CHOOSE LIFE that you may live, ...by loving the Lord your God, by obeying Him, by holding fast to Him..."

 

[sola fide]

That begs the question...if salvation is to all men, then why aren't they all saved? ALL died in Adam right...yet ALL are not saved. Death was given to all, salvation only comes to some.
I love how people make every thread an attempt to vent against the doctrines of grace, especially when it's completely unnecessary for the thread.

 

[Ben johnson]

That begs the question...if salvation is to all men, then why aren't they all saved? ALL died in Adam right...yet ALL are not saved. Death was given to all, salvation only comes to some.
I love how people make every thread an attempt to vent against the doctrines of grace, especially when it's completely unnecessary for the thread.

Hi, SF!

The answer to your question, is because we are NOT saved by grace. Do you believe that? We are saved by grace through faith.

Rom5:18 says "condemnation CAME to all men", and it uses "so then, even so" to present: "justification CAME to all men". But the previous verse, 5:17, says "abundance of grace and gift of righteousness, is RECEIVED!

Thus what Paul is saying, is that "justification CAME to PAS ANTHROPOS EVERY HUMAN" (atonement is unlimited in availability), AND those who RECEIVE the gift are justified.

This gets back to the question of, "What is the purpose of the Cross?" According to Predestinationists, the Cross was ineffective---salvation was ALREADY DECIDED by God. So the Cross was DEMONSTRATIVE, mere pageantry. BUT---if the Cross WAS effective, that is "Jesus died that WHOSEVER BELIEVES may have eternal life, He came not to CONDEMN the world but so that the WORLD might be saved through HIM"---then the Cross was EFFECTIVE---universal in availability, effective to those who BELIEVE!

 

[new2calvin]

Does God have to save anyone? Was He obligated to save anyone?

 

[dbwisc]

I have a question: Why doesn't Total Depravity lead automatically to Utter Depravity? It did for most of the world in Gen 6.

DB

 

[Reformationist]

I have a question: Why doesn't Total Depravity lead automatically to Utter Depravity? It did for most of the world in Gen 6.

DB

We have never seen a case of utter depravity. While there would be varied opinions on humanity's worst known case of human evil, the list would probably be rather short. I, personally, would either offer Nero or Hitler as the epitome of hamanity's capacity for evil but, at the same time, I have no doubt that even these depraved individuals had moments of moral restraint.

Genesis 6 does not reflect mankind's utter depravity. I doubt we could even fathom the effects of mankind being utterly depraved.

Additionally, it is not our own ability to restrain ourselves that keeps us from being utterly depraved. It is the sovereign power and grace of God that restrains man.

God bless

 

[Miss Shelby]

Hey Reformationist.

I saw your post and I just wanted to say hi. Long time no see.

Michelle

 

[Reformationist]

Hey Reformationist.

I saw your post and I just wanted to say hi. Long time no see.

Michelle

Hello yourself Miss Michelle. How have you been? I haven't seen you around in a while?

Hope all is well,
God bless

 

[billwald]

The Reformed doctrine (Dutch branch <G>) of total depravity teaches that it DOESN'T mean that everyone is as evil as possible but that sin influences all human activity including the Church.

 

[Reformationist]

The Reformed doctrine (Dutch branch <G>) of total depravity teaches that it DOESN'T mean that everyone is as evil as possible but that sin influences all human activity including the Church.

Actually, ALL of orthodox reformed churches teach that. No orthodox reformed denomination teaches that man is as bad as he could be, i.e., utterly depraved.

God bless