Tormented Into the Lake of Fire Forever or Not

[dfw69]

In other words, you're convinced of the correctness of your position, and any other position is out of the question. No problem. As in the past, that leaves you with nothing to contribute or learn.

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today.

Truth is truth. unless you believe y'Shia is not telling the truth. He said he is the truth. Yes I believe him...

Shouldn't we all?

 

[Messy]

That's not the Torah.

I had to Google that one, oh it's only 5 books. Thanks, I learned something today.

 

[dfw69]

In other words, you're convinced of the correctness of your position, and any other position is out of the question. No problem. As in the past, that leaves you with nothing to contribute or learn.

Yonah .On a personal level I hold to my views...yes ..who doesn't?....But I have learned other teachings on these forums ...I will listen if you have something to teach...I tend to believe I have an open mind....But I won't accept anything that goes against y'Shia teachings....Will you accept any teachings that goes against Judaism?...I don't think so....does that mean you have nothing to contribute or learn?

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Daniel 12
1"At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who shall be found written in the book. 2Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3Those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the expanse; and those who turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.

So if someone DOES NOT receive eternal, did they receive life?

 

[yonah_mishael]

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today.

Truth is truth. unless you believe y'Shia is not telling the truth. He said he is the truth. Yes I believe him...

Shouldn't we all?

Yonah .On a personal level I hold to my views...yes ..who doesn't?....But I have learned other teachings on these forums ...I will listen if you have something to teach...I tend to believe I have an open mind....But I won't accept anything that goes against y'Shia teachings....Will you accept any teachings that goes against Judaism?...I don't think so....does that mean you have nothing to contribute or learn?

Actually, I'll follow evidence wherever it leads. Truth is truth, as you said. Why should I be committed to something that turns out not to be true when examined critically?

 

[ContraMundum]

This assumes that the Revelation is written to be interpreted linearly. There is no word are in the Greek of that verse. It could mean "where the beast and the false prophet [had been thrown in the previous vision]" without any reference to time. It doesn't say that they had already been there for a thousand years. It could be that they were thrown there at the same time, if we interpret the 1000 years as happening concurrent with the present age (as is the traditional Catholic interpretation - amillennialism). The problem only exists for futurists who interpret the 1000 years as happening after the present age.

+1.

How come you know NT theology better than some of the folks on here?

 

[dfw69]

Actually, I'll follow evidence wherever it leads. Truth is truth, as you said. Why should I be committed to something that turns out not to be true when examined critically?

What are you referring to?

The lake of fire?

Or Jesus is the truth?

If you believe you don't need him to be your sacrifice to save you from your sins against the laws of hashem ....and you would rather sacrifice the old fashioned way ...that is your choice ...

I want him to be my sacrifice .....because the blood of goats don't cut it with hashem.

 

[yonah_mishael]

What are you referring to?

The lake of fire?

Or Jesus is the truth?

If you believe you don't need him to be your sacrifice to save you from your sins against the laws of hashem ....and you would rather sacrifice the old fashioned way ...that is your choice ...

I want him to be my sacrifice .....because the blood of goats don't cut it with hashem.

Your form of "logic" just baffles the mind. The blood of a goat isn't satisfactory for a blood-thirsty deity, therefore one must have a human sacrifice instead. God has no authority to declare someone forgiven without blood. If you don't kill something, then God has no power. That's pretty sick.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Look, dfw, you said that "Truth is Truth." To me, this means that something is true if it's true, and even if you don't want it to be so. A major consequence of this fact is that it may be true that my own personal set of beliefs is false and that something else (or even nothing else) is true. This would be the case whether I wanted to believe it or not.

I don't think you actually meant that "Truth is Truth." I think you really meant to claim that your set of beliefs is fully true, which is another claim altogether. If we find out that the Torah was written by man, then it is clear that the Torah was not given from heaven. Does this conclusion frighten or threaten me? No, it threatens only the claim that the Torah was given from heaven. If we have proofs even for the non-existence of God, will that threaten me or scare me a bit? No. Truth is Truth. If it's true, I will do my best to search it out and acknowledge it. I am not afraid to face hard truths, even if they shake the foundations of the faith that I received as a younger man.

 

[dfw69]

Your form of "logic" just baffles the mind. The blood of a goat isn't satisfactory for a blood-thirsty deity, therefore one must have a human sacrifice instead. God has no authority to declare someone forgiven without blood. If you don't kill something, then God has no power. That's pretty sick.

Has no one ever taught you the gospel?....that is not the proper way to see it yonah

Israel sin on the mountain and God wanted to destroy every one and start over with Moses. ...Israel sinned after knowing the works of hashem who lead them out of Egypt by his own hands. ..Israel deserves to die for her crimes....if you are Jewish you are their seed and their sin in upon you ....just as Adam sin and we are his seed and adam made all of us guilty and under his curse...to die... but Moses intercede for Israel and a covenant was made to protect them from the wrath of God. That is why a goat is sacrificed in place of Israel sin to atone.....but Israel was forever a debtor to hashem....that is ....until the messiah would come to free Israel from her obligations ...the law was a curse upon Israel....and they needed to be delivered from its power over the children of Israel....

So God in his mercy sent his only begotten son to die for every Israel who wanted to be free from his obligations and curse of the law....it's a choice ....remain in bondage or be set free and make a new covenant with the one who saves you. .it's suppose to be good news....but you find it offensive....this is hashems doing....not mine bro

 

[dfw69]

Look, dfw, you said that "Truth is Truth." To me, this means that something is true if it's true, and even if you don't want it to be so. A major consequence of this fact is that it may be true that my own personal set of beliefs is false and that something else (or even nothing else) is true. This would be the case whether I wanted to believe it or not.

I don't think you actually meant that "Truth is Truth." I think you really meant to claim that your set of beliefs is fully true, which is another claim altogether. If we find out that the Torah was written by man, then it is clear that the Torah was not given from heaven. Does this conclusion frighten or threaten me? No, it threatens only the claim that the Torah was given from heaven. If we have proofs even for the non-existence of God, will that threaten me or scare me a bit? No. Truth is Truth. If it's true, I will do my best to search it out and acknowledge it. I am not afraid to face hard truths, even if they shake the foundations of the faith that I received as a younger man.

I believe Jesus is the truth... And his truth is truth . His words are true. .I believe him. Maybe that's what i should have said.

I just wanted to post my beliefs on hell. how did you and I end up getting tangled...sheesh

 

[danny ski]

Has no one ever taught you the gospel?....that is not the proper way to see it yonah

Israel sin on the mountain and God wanted to destroy every one and start over with Moses. ...Israel sinned after knowing the works of hashem who lead them out of Egypt by his own hands. ..Israel deserves to die for her crimes....if you are Jewish you are their seed and their sin in upon you ....just as Adam sin and we are his seed and adam made all of us guilty and under his curse...to die... but Moses intercede for Israel and a covenant was made to protect them from the wrath of God. That is why a goat is sacrificed in place of Israel sin to atone.....but Israel was forever a debtor to hashem....that is ....until the messiah would come to free Israel from her obligations ...the law was a curse upon Israel....and they needed to be delivered from its power over the children of Israel....

So God in his mercy sent his only begotten son to die for every Israel who wanted to be free from his obligations and curse of the law....it's a choice ....remain in bondage or be set free and make a new covenant with the one who saves you. .it's suppose to be good news....but you find it offensive....this is hashems doing....not mine bro

This is wrong on so many levels, from our point of view. But, I'll leave it with Yonah.

 

[ContraMundum]

Your form of "logic" just baffles the mind. The blood of a goat isn't satisfactory for a blood-thirsty deity, therefore one must have a human sacrifice instead.

To be fair, I don't think Christian theology sees human blood sacrifice as the better way to please God than killing animals. There's a few competing atonement theories and all of them have some basis in the Tanach, and all have some light to shed. To my way of thinking, only the sacrifice of the Cross matters - the old animal killings were a sacrament-like access to that Cross...but I could on and on about this and I digress.

God has no authority to declare someone forgiven without blood. If you don't kill something, then God has no power. That's pretty sick.

Do you think that the Torah teaches that killing animals appeases God?

 

[Lulav]

Your form of "logic" just baffles the mind. The blood of a goat isn't satisfactory for a blood-thirsty deity, therefore one must have a human sacrifice instead. God has no authority to declare someone forgiven without blood. If you don't kill something, then God has no power. That's pretty sick.

If I didn't know I was in the MJ forum I would swear this was one of the forums that the atheists post in. Am I understanding you correctly J, are you calling YHVH a blood thirsty deity and a sick one at that?

He is G-d , he made the rules. When you sin against him there is a penalty to pay. He didn't make this rule after man had sinned.
You understand the subtleties of Passover right? Israel was given the instructions to take a perfect lamb, sacrifice it and use it's blood to cover the doorposts to their dwelling. The blood is a covering, it didn't mean they were any less sinful than Egypt, but the one thing they had that Egypt didn't was the one True G-d and he showed them the way to live, the way of salvation. This is carried out further in the rest of Torah when the firstborn of Israel is redeemed while of the animals they are given to G-d.

Do you think it is better that if a man sins he must pay with his life? G-d felt it was better to sacrifice one of his lesser creations than one of his better ones, mankind. This is love. Do you not think he loves all his creation? But he is G-d and being G-d the creator demands respect from his creations.

 

[Lulav]

Look, dfw, you said that "Truth is Truth." To me, this means that something is true if it's true, and even if you don't want it to be so. A major consequence of this fact is that it may be true that my own personal set of beliefs is false and that something else (or even nothing else) is true. This would be the case whether I wanted to believe it or not.

I don't think you actually meant that "Truth is Truth." I think you really meant to claim that your set of beliefs is fully true, which is another claim altogether. If we find out that the Torah was written by man, then it is clear that the Torah was not given from heaven. Does this conclusion frighten or threaten me? No, it threatens only the claim that the Torah was given from heaven. If we have proofs even for the non-existence of God, will that threaten me or scare me a bit? No. Truth is Truth. If it's true, I will do my best to search it out and acknowledge it. I am not afraid to face hard truths, even if they shake the foundations of the faith that I received as a younger man.

This begs the question, if this is how you feel about the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, why did you choose to become part of Israel by converting? You didn't believe in Christianity that you were born into, so you converted to Judaism and that would be for religious reasons, yet it sounds like you don't believe in Israel's G-d or our texts?

Don't get me wrong, it is good to search for truth, I have done so all my almost 60 years, but even when we find something that upsets our apple cart we must not stop and think we know it all. We also must be careful not to project our want to be uninhibited as a gauge to judge our discoveries upon.

 

[pat34lee]

Actually, I'll follow evidence wherever it leads. Truth is truth, as you said. Why should I be committed to something that turns out not to be true when examined critically?

Most people will say that, but the critical thing is the burden of proof. Some hold it impossibly high to change their beliefs.

 

[pat34lee]

Your form of "logic" just baffles the mind. The blood of a goat isn't satisfactory for a blood-thirsty deity, therefore one must have a human sacrifice instead. God has no authority to declare someone forgiven without blood. If you don't kill something, then God has no power. That's pretty sick.

Why is anything worth money? If I dig up random stones, why is one worth basically nothing, another worth hundreds of whatever currency, and another worth millions?

Why blood? Because it is the life. Only life can redeem life. God cannot accept less and still be just.

 

[dfw69]

If I didn't know I was in the MJ forum I would swear this was one of the forums that the atheists post in. Am I understanding you correctly J, are you calling YHVH a blood thirsty deity and a sick one at that?

He is G-d , he made the rules. When you sin against him there is a penalty to pay. He didn't make this rule after man had sinned.
You understand the subtleties of Passover right? Israel was given the instructions to take a perfect lamb, sacrifice it and use it's blood to cover the doorposts to their dwelling. The blood is a covering, it didn't mean they were any less sinful than Egypt, but the one thing they had that Egypt didn't was the one True G-d and he showed them the way to live, the way of salvation. This is carried out further in the rest of Torah when the firstborn of Israel is redeemed while of the animals they are given to G-d.

Do you think it is better that if a man sins he must pay with his life? G-d felt it was better to sacrifice one of his lesser creations than one of his better ones, mankind. This is love. Do you not think he loves all his creation? But he is G-d and being G-d the creator demands respect from his creations.

Good post. .

only in the true and perfect sacrifice... ..God choose (not a lesser of his creation to sacrifice but) the greatest sacrifice ....God choose to sacrifice his only begotten son..for lesser beings to be saved....

He sacrifice his son to save the beast ....it's a reversal....

He sacrifice his best to save the sinners...why?

Yah ahahvah is his name that's why

 

[yonah_mishael]

Well, I think I've managed to get everyone's attention far enough away from the main question of the thread and the topic pulled into an area that I cannot address on this forum. I hope you'll respect my not taking this line of discussion any further.

 

[pat34lee]

Well, I think I've managed to get everyone's attention far enough away from the main question of the thread and the topic pulled into an area that I cannot address on this forum. I hope you'll respect my not taking this line of discussion any further.

Nice dodge.