Tormented Into the Lake of Fire Forever or Not

[Yahudim]

Easy my friend, you read waaaayyyy too much commentary.

 

[Yahudim]

The Torah is not concerned with the world to come. The focus of the Torah is on here and now.

True, but not exclusively. He also declares the end from the beginning.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Easy my friend, you read waaaayyyy too much commentary.

All scripture's with commentary, Bruh..from seeing how the scriptures were developed to explaining the archeological background of areas/word studies. As Hiliel said best, when asked by a non-Jew to relate all the Torah had to say while standing on one foot, Hillel replied, "Do not unto your neighbor what you would not have him do until you; this is the whole Law; the rest is commentary."

Generally, those without commentary are often the ones on the fringes saying "God told me what this scripture meant!!!" for all things ala Joseph Smith and others Within Messianic culture, the same happens often..and I've turned down a number of commentaries for a host of reasons. But ultimately, what's in the Book is what's in the Book. And on the subject of Hell itself, there's a logical reason for it existing/being seen BY the saints even in eternity for all time when understanding the precedent of the Lord being a creator, having multiple rebellions (both times in perfection) and wanting to ensure others will have for all time an eternal example to see before them on what will occur when Rebellion does occur. The commentary alone simply gives reference for that concept--and if you don't agree with or (or don't want to read), you can always skip over it. But the concept is not something one can bypass easily when seeing the scriptural proclamations on Hell/its purpose

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hell has never been a teaching in Judaism. The words "Grave" and "Pit" have been given the interpretation "Hell." Hell is a Pagan belief and has its origins in Paganism. The word "Fire" is often used to mean "Judgement" as a parable. We do not worship a God who is without mercy, and has a need to torture living being for all eternity. That is what Pagans believe.

If it is true that there will be people ALIVE in Hell, Then God lied, and the Serpent told the truth. Was the word "Hell" added to scripture replacing the words grave, pit, and Gehenna?

Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


Genesis 3:3
but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
God did not say "you must not touch it."

Genesis 3:4
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.


Now who is telling the truth, God or the Serpent? According to scripture the Serpent is telling the truth. And that is why you see the word "Hell" in scripture. It's a place for God to torture LIVING BEINGS for all eternity.
That is why our bibles also say God does "EVIL." Did you know that King James was the Grand Master of the Masons, and that the King James Bible is also known as the Masonic Bible? And that is the tip of the iceberg.

This subject is about the condemned, not those who will receive life immortal.

The Hebrew word Sheol literally means grave, not Hell. Is there LIFE in Hell? God says that man will surely die, and the Serpent says that man will not surely die.
The Pagans teach that there is life in Hell. God says there is death. And Yahshua also said that God can destroy both body and spirit.
Is the word "HELL" biblical, or not? If the word Hell is biblical, then the Serpent told the truth.

Romans 1:32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


If it is true that there will be people ALIVE in Hell, Then God lied, and the Serpent told the truth. Was the word "Hell" added to scripture replacing the words grave, pit, and Gehenna? I do not think that it is evil for God to take away the lives of the condemned. As a matter of fact I think that it is responsible and merciful.

Everyone should remember that the Serpent, Satan, and Devil is a liar. The Serpent says you will not surely die, after God said you will surely die.

Yahshua reaffirms this by saying God can destroy both body and spirit. Personally I do not believe in universal salvation, because I see no scriptural support for it. There are variations to the meaning spirit and spiritual. A living soul consist of both body and spirit. Death of the spirit is the second death. God does not lie, there is no reason for Him to do so. Immortality is an act of God, and nothing we can do ourselves. the lake of fire is a parabolic phrase. "Lake" being the body of the condemned, and fire being the judgement. [And after that] death and the grave are done away with. But only after the judement.

There is a permanent punishment for the condemned, it's called death. If peoples sins cost them their life, then why think they have escaped justice. We worship a God who is merciful.

In many ways, what you seem to be advocating here is the concept of Annihilationism, which in many ways has alot of Biblical merit when considering aspects of it that were accepted by the early church---some of them having a bit of a middle ground approach in saying that being annihilated would occur after an extensive time of punishment in the life to come. If one's for the thought that immortality is for God alone, the concept makes alot of sense--and others such as Greg Boyd have done some good work on the issue (seen here and here /here /here).

For others:

• The Utter Folly of Arguing Over Hell - UK Apologeticsjavascript:void(0)
  
  
  
• Annihilation or Eternal Punishment? - UK Apologetics
• "Destroyed For Ever: An Examination of the Debates Concerning Annihilation and Conditional Immortality...javascript:void(0)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

May we be strong in faith and knowing to be in the midst like Daniel's friends with Yeshua..

They may have lines of people in the life to come waiting to ask them questions on how they made it through

 

[Yusuphhai]

Thank you all. I have read all posts. Sorry I reply late for I am busy on my work and I read English more slowly than Chinese. I still tend to think the Punishment to Satan and who belong to him is everlasting. If not, why do I need salvation? “Disappear” to many suffering people is a kind of good “rest”.

I know a little about metempsychosis of Buddhism. That means life never ends, but is just from circle to next circle. I don’t agree with Buddhism. Because I don’t think without salvation in essence an evil creation can change to virtuous one in the next circle. And God do not save the fallen angels and humans who have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit (Ruah HaKodesh).

Certainly to my limited thinking ability, I can not draw a sure conclusion about whether the “hell”(Sheol?) is everlasting or not. Even if there are different ideas to this point, MJ does not exile each other.

 

[jcpro]

All scripture's with commentary, Bruh..from seeing how the scriptures were developed to explaining the archeological background of areas/word studies. As Hiliel said best, when asked by a non-Jew to relate all the Torah had to say while standing on one foot, Hillel replied, "Do not unto your neighbor what you would not have him do until you; this is the whole Law; the rest is commentary."

Generally, those without commentary are often the ones on the fringes saying "God told me what this scripture meant!!!" for all things ala Joseph Smith and others Within Messianic culture, the same happens often..and I've turned down a number of commentaries for a host of reasons. But ultimately, what's in the Book is what's in the Book. And on the subject of Hell itself, there's a logical reason for it existing/being seen BY the saints even in eternity for all time when understanding the precedent of the Lord being a creator, having multiple rebellions (both times in perfection) and wanting to ensure others will have for all time an eternal example to see before them on what will occur when Rebellion does occur. The commentary alone simply gives reference for that concept--and if you don't agree with or (or don't want to read), you can always skip over it. But the concept is not something one can bypass easily when seeing the scriptural proclamations on Hell/its purpose

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn" Talmud, Shabbat 31a. Hillel is clear. The rest is but an explanation(commentary), yet it's vital to learn it.

 

[Yahudim]

Thank you all. I have read all posts. Sorry I reply late for I am busy on my work and I read English more slowly than Chinese. I still tend to think the Punishment to Satan and who belong to him is everlasting. If not, why do I need salvation? “Disappear” to many suffering people is a kind of good “rest”.

I know a little about metempsychosis of Buddhism. That means life never ends, but is just from circle to next circle. I don’t agree with Buddhism. Because I don’t think without salvation in essence an evil creation can change to virtuous one in the next circle. And God do not save the fallen angels and humans who have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit (Ruah HaKodesh).

Certainly to my limited thinking ability, I can not draw a sure conclusion about whether the “hell”(Sheol?) is everlasting or not. Even if there are different ideas to this point, MJ does not exile each other.

I like what you say. Thank you for your excellent thoughts.

 

[Yahudim]

All scripture's with commentary, Bruh..from seeing how the scriptures were developed to explaining the archeological background of areas/word studies. As Hiliel said best, when asked by a non-Jew to relate all the Torah had to say while standing on one foot, Hillel replied, "Do not unto your neighbor what you would not have him do until you; this is the whole Law; the rest is commentary."

Generally, those without commentary are often the ones on the fringes saying "God told me what this scripture meant!!!" for all things ala Joseph Smith and others Within Messianic culture, the same happens often..and I've turned down a number of commentaries for a host of reasons. But ultimately, what's in the Book is what's in the Book. And on the subject of Hell itself, there's a logical reason for it existing/being seen BY the saints even in eternity for all time when understanding the precedent of the Lord being a creator, having multiple rebellions (both times in perfection) and wanting to ensure others will have for all time an eternal example to see before them on what will occur when Rebellion does occur. The commentary alone simply gives reference for that concept--and if you don't agree with or (or don't want to read), you can always skip over it. But the concept is not something one can bypass easily when seeing the scriptural proclamations on Hell/its purpose

We need an 'elbow' smiley face. You can tell when I'm ribbing you, right?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thank you all. I have read all posts. Sorry I reply late for I am busy on my work and I read English more slowly than Chinese. I still tend to think the Punishment to Satan and who belong to him is everlasting. If not, why do I need salvation? “Disappear” to many suffering people is a kind of good “rest”.
.

One of my close friends noted the same thing once when saying that the view of no eternal suffering and simply "disappearing" would actually be something not to fear.....but then again, there are alot of people who do not believe that eternal life will be for the wicked and yet they will have a LONG time of suffering before ceasing to exist. For more on that, one can go here:

• Annihilationism and The Gospel | a view of the woodsjavascript:void(0)
  
  
  
• Heaven to Earth: The Christian Hope in the Resurrection, Part I of III
• Heaven to Earth: The Christian Hope in the Resurrection, Part II of III ...
• Heaven to Earth: The Christian Hope in the Resurrection, Part III ...javascript:void(0)
  
  
  
  
  
• Hell: Eternal Torture? « The Centrality and Supremacy of Jesus Christ

I know a little about metempsychosis of Buddhism. That means life never ends, but is just from circle to next circle. I don’t agree with Buddhism. Because I don’t think without salvation in essence an evil creation can change to virtuous one in the next circle.

And God do not save the fallen angels and humans who have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit (Ruah HaKodesh).

The unforgivable sin is something else that adds in another level of discussion..

Certainly to my limited thinking ability, I can not draw a sure conclusion about whether the “hell”(Sheol?) is everlasting or not. Even if there are different ideas to this point, MJ does not exile each other

Real

 

[Gxg (G²)]

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn" Talmud, Shabbat 31a. Hillel is clear. The rest is but an explanation(commentary), yet it's vital to learn it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We need an 'elbow' smiley face. You

I think there used to be one...but in the event it's lost, one can always put the disclaimer "ribbing"

You can tell when I'm ribbing you, right?

Alot of times, yeah. But as misinterpretation has occurred from many, it's not always easy.

 

[visionary]

What Is The Lake Of Fire?
The phrase "yam aish" (lake of fire) means the same as "Gehenna." Yam aish is a Hebrew idiom for destruction. No one is "in" yam aish (destroyed) yet. We must not fear the one who can destroy the body, but rather fear the One Who can destroy both body and nefesh in yam aish. The first to go to destruction in yam aish will be the beast and false prophet.

 

[pinacled]

Noah, Dan and Job.
Water and Fire coming out of the Belly of the whale.

…13"Son of man, if a country sins against Me by committing unfaithfulness, and I stretch out My hand against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine against it and cut off from it both man and beast, 14even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord GOD.

I wonder by their own righteousness they could deliver themselves?

 

[SkyWriting]

Tormented Into the Lake of Fire Forever or Not

(HNV)Rev 20:10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Today I just heard an opinion about “Hell” from my Messianic fellowship. He and his Rabbi in US. think the Greek word “forever and ever” (maybe “Ayan”) does not mean “everlasting” but “Ages of Ages”, that is several very long periods but limited time. I know the main streams of MJ still think Satan and people who belong to him will be put to hell to be tormented in unlimited time. Do you think Satan or Adolf Hitler has opportunity to leave the hell and rebuild himself after the punishment in long periods?

I disagree with the “Temporal Punishment” opinion. He said this opinion would be looked as heresy by others. But to me it is not a very big problem because he is a warmhearted man who likes to help others and practice MJ way. And he said if he find he is wrong he will change the idea. He is the only Messianic I can meet in Beijing China, so he is very precious to me.

Please give me some advice. Thanks.

In Revelation we learn that "Day & Night" ends.
So that is the clue to the answer.

 

[BukiRob]

The account of the rich man and Lazarus makes the point that there is torment and that there is a chasm set between hell and earth that cannot be bridged. (Luke 16)

It is very dangerous to ascribe a parable teaching 1 point to also meaning something not indicated in the purpose of the parable.

 

[BukiRob]

The Torah is not concerned with the world to come. The focus of the Torah is on here and now.

Boy that is not true. Much of the Torah reveals both the future in the coming of Messiah and the end of the age... neither of which are hear and now issues

 

[visionary]

Noah, Dan and Job.
Water and Fire coming out of the Belly of the whale.

…13"Son of man, if a country sins against Me by committing unfaithfulness, and I stretch out My hand against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine against it and cut off from it both man and beast, 14even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord GOD.

I wonder by their own righteousness they could deliver themselves?

The righteous live by faith, walk it, talk it, and emulate Yeshua enough where you can say they are truly overcomers. They are living proof that you can walk in God's Laws, Ways, and Truth and live. As Yeshua said because He believed we all can... "Go and Sin no more"

 

[Yusuphhai]

Several year ago, A MJ teacher from bethtikkun O.H. ,U.S. privately preached he thought “Gehenna” meant “disappear” after a very longtime(ages of ages, forever and ever) sufferings.


Recently he preaches this topic publicly.

http://bethtikkun.com/

http://bethtikkun.com/our-living-god-the-savior-of-all/

http://bethtikkun.com/our-living-god-the-savior-of-all-part-2/

http://bethtikkun.com/our-living-god-the-savior-of-all-part-3/


Reference:

I search the Greek meaning of “for ever and ever” in E-Sword:

(KJV+)Rev 20:10 AndG2532 theG3588 devilG1228 that deceivedG4105 themG846 was castG906 intoG1519 theG3588 lakeG3041 of fireG4442 andG2532 brimstone,G2303 whereG3699 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 theG3588 false prophetG5578 are, andG2532 shall be tormentedG928 dayG2250 andG2532 nightG3571 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

G165

αἰών

aiōn

ahee-ohn'

From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I can certainly agree with the position that the doctrine of hell is repugnant and probably unscriptural. However, I would not use the claim that αἰών in εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων (Rev. 20:10) is not eternal. It can be either eternal or limited to an age. Certainly, when we say that God lives εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, we mean that he's eternal. When we say that God deserves to receive praise εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, we must certainly be referring to eternity. It seems to me that this phrase certainly means that, even in Rev. 20:10, but it shouldn't be understood literally any more than the statement that the locusts in Revelation have the faces of women. Do they really have the faces of women? Or, is this symbolic? Could eternity be symbolic with regard to the torment of Satan, the beast and the false prophet?