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Tormented Into the Lake of Fire Forever or Not

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Yusuphhai, Jan 7, 2012.

  1. Yusuphhai

    Yusuphhai Messianic Arabic-Semitic Chinese

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    Tormented Into the Lake of Fire Forever or Not

    (HNV)Rev 20:10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Today I just heard an opinion about “Hell” from my Messianic fellowship. He and his Rabbi in US. think the Greek word “forever and ever” (maybe “Ayan”) does not mean “everlasting” but “Ages of Ages”, that is several very long periods but limited time. I know the main streams of MJ still think Satan and people who belong to him will be put to hell to be tormented in unlimited time. Do you think Satan or Adolf Hitler has opportunity to leave the hell and rebuild himself after the punishment in long periods?

    I disagree with the “Temporal Punishment” opinion. He said this opinion would be looked as heresy by others. But to me it is not a very big problem because he is a warmhearted man who likes to help others and practice MJ way. And he said if he find he is wrong he will change the idea. He is the only Messianic I can meet in Beijing China, so he is very precious to me.

    Please give me some advice. Thanks.
     
  2. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    The account of the rich man and Lazarus makes the point that there is torment and that there is a chasm set between hell and earth that cannot be bridged. (Luke 16)
     
  3. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Shalom..



    I myself tend to hold more toward Jewish concepts of the afterlife...and I get a bit uncomfortable with the concept of the Jewish afterlife. Not saying that I don't care to research....but at the church I was raised in during my youth, I grew up with the traditional understanding of Heaven/Hell and eternal damnation for those who don't seek the Lord. With that, it can be difficult to relearn many things that you grew up with. For myself, what I've come to see is that there is ineed the place known as Hell within the OT Scriptures/echoed in the NT as well. However, within that is the thought I believe that Hell is truly locked from the inside out (as others have noted such as C.S Lewis)---and that those in Hell are there because they choose to be there ultimately, with the Lord in His Love honoring their choice.....and to a degree, as seen in the Book of Maccabees, it seems that there is a journey that occurs for others lost (or saved)/prayer may be something that is valid for them (as shared in-depth here in #108 ). I'd rather not take the risk as many do in saying Hell doesn't exist when studying what the scriptures say about Sheol/the Grave--and I'd also not take the risk in saying all of those who mess up in this life are automatically doomed to not make it in the next since there is so much about the Lord we don't understand (especially His Mercy and the dynamics of the afterlife, shared here)----and ultimately, it's about whether or not your life has truly been changed by the Messiah/living in fear of the Great Judgement to come....walking in the Fear of the Lord.




    I have no doubts based on reading Revelation that others like the Devil/Anti-Christ and all others with their mindset will suffer everlasting in Hell, as the book of Revelations makes clear--and anyone trying to cast doubt on that I have serious concern. However, I'm not of the mindset that all people who are truly within the "worse of the worse" category can never come to know His mercy or have second chances. Even the worst people have found redeemption in the Lord---and if He can forgive you and I (Just as He did at the Cross when saying "Father Forgive them, they know not what they do" ), surely He can forgive others and in His pleasure choose to show mercy to them if He sees fit.


    Taking that further, if others do things in ignorance and don't know what they're doing fully but die before ever hearing about Christ, there're consequences...but again, I don't know if I can say they're simply lost forever. What I can say is that the scriptures are clear that MANY will be lost in the days to come (Matthew 7)---and many will be surprised they even made it in (as shared before here in #51 )--but on the same token, many will be shocked they made it in.........and for those who willingly/knowingly reject Him even after being given knowledge of the truth, there's indeed no hope and the Lord honors their choice to live eternally apart from Him/His glory in the depths.


    For places where discussion has already occurred, one can consider investigating threads such as "Hell" , Wrath of God or in threads here...or looking up articles such as The Naked Bible » Sheol: The OT “Bad Place”? - Michael S. Heiser

    Others in Evangelical Christianity have sought to bring the issue back to the surface....namely, in people such as Rob Bell or Gregory McDonald among others when it comes to saying that the concept of "eternal fire" was not always within Jewish thought. Many within Christian circles have said others not advocating a view of eternal fire are counter to the Jewish scripture and are Herectics. And I've appreciated others who've sought to give a picture of what the world looks like with the Lord choosing to give full revelation to those in the afterlife (possibly who'd want it). Dr. Michael Brown sought to discuss the issue more in-depth, as it concerns the subject of Universal Reconcilliation and what a Jewish perspective would be on Heaven/Hell---as seen in his ministry podcast entitled --&#8220;Ultimate Reconciliation,&#8221; Heaven, Hell, and Rob Bell: A Biblical Perspective << Line of Fire ..." ()---and others like Roger Olson also shared their perspectives ( as seen here , here and here)



    For more, the following are some good places to go for review on what others in Christian circles are debating...and how many are just coming into awareness of the subjects that Jewish people have been debating for centuries:

    __________________
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  4. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua Well-Known Member

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    Hell has never been a teaching in Judaism. The words "Grave" and "Pit" have been given the interpretation "Hell." Hell is a Pagan belief and has its origins in Paganism. The word "Fire" is often used to mean "Judgement" as a parable. We do not worship a God who is without mercy, and has a need to torture living being for all eternity. That is what Pagans believe.

    If it is true that there will be people ALIVE in Hell, Then God lied, and the Serpent told the truth. Was the word "Hell" added to scripture replacing the words grave, pit, and Gehenna?


    Genesis 2:17
    but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


    Genesis 3:3
    but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
    God did not say "you must not touch it."

    Genesis 3:4
    "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.


    Now who is telling the truth, God or the Serpent? According to scripture the Serpent is telling the truth. And that is why you see the word "Hell" in scripture. It's a place for God to torture LIVING BEINGS for all eternity.
    That is why our bibles also say God does "EVIL." Did you know that King James was the Grand Master of the Masons, and that the King James Bible is also known as the Masonic Bible? And that is the tip of the iceberg.

    This subject is about the condemned, not those who will receive life immortal.

    The Hebrew word Sheol literally means grave, not Hell. Is there LIFE in Hell? God says that man will surely die, and the Serpent says that man will not surely die.
    The Pagans teach that there is life in Hell. God says there is death. And Yahshua also said that God can destroy both body and spirit.
    Is the word "HELL" biblical, or not? If the word Hell is biblical, then the Serpent told the truth.


    Romans 1:32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


    If it is true that there will be people ALIVE in Hell, Then God lied, and the Serpent told the truth. Was the word "Hell" added to scripture replacing the words grave, pit, and Gehenna? I do not think that it is evil for God to take away the lives of the condemned. As a matter of fact I think that it is responsible and merciful.

    Everyone should remember that the Serpent, Satan, and Devil is a liar. The Serpent says you will not surely die, after God said you will surely die.

    Yahshua reaffirms this by saying God can destroy both body and spirit. Personally I do not believe in universal salvation, because I see no scriptural support for it. There are variations to the meaning spirit and spiritual. A living soul consist of both body and spirit. Death of the spirit is the second death. God does not lie, there is no reason for Him to do so. Immortality is an act of God, and nothing we can do ourselves. the lake of fire is a parabolic phrase. "Lake" being the body of the condemned, and fire being the judgement. [And after that] death and the grave are done away with. But only after the judement.

    There is a permanent punishment for the condemned, it's called death. If peoples sins cost them their life, then why think they have escaped justice. We worship a God who is merciful.
     
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    If the wicked and Satan are reduced to ashes..

    Isaiah 33:12
    The peoples will be burned to ashes; like cut thornbushes they will be set ablaze.&#8221;

    Ezekiel 28:18
    By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.

    Malachi 4:3
    Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,&#8221; says the LORD Almighty.

    2 Peter 2:6
    if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

    I would say that there is a point when "consumed" is nothing left...

    Exodus 15:7
    &#8220;In the greatness of your majesty you threw down those who opposed you. You unleashed your burning anger; it consumed them like stubble.

    Leviticus 10:2
    So fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.

    Numbers 11:1
    [ Fire From the LORD ] Now the people complained about their hardships in the hearing of the LORD, and when he heard them his anger was aroused. Then fire from the LORD burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp.

    Numbers 16:35
    And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.

    2 Kings 1:10
    Elijah answered the captain, &#8220;If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!&#8221; Then fire fell from heaven and consumed the captain and his men.

    Psalm 106:18
    Fire blazed among their followers; a flame consumed the wicked.

    Zephaniah 1:18
    Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD&#8217;s wrath.&#8221; In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth.

    Zephaniah 3:8
    Therefore wait for me,&#8221; declares the LORD, &#8220;for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them&#8212; all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger.

    Revelation 18:8
    Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
     
  6. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    :thumbsup:

    Makes me think of the Lord singing the song "Ready or Not, Here I Come..You Can't Hide"
     
  7. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    May we be strong in faith and knowing to be in the midst like Daniel's friends with Yeshua..
     
  8. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    Hello and welcome to Eternity, the Universe's most expensive Bar-B-Que. We have your reservation. Come this way. We have you down for the smoking section...:eek:
     
  9. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    There's a fairly 'standard' book on this: 'Evil and God of Love' by John Hick. He has since gone off the rails in a big way but this was written when he was very much a sound, evangelical minister.
     
  10. jcpro

    jcpro Newbie

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    on the other hand the Old Testament quotes don't really talk about the torment in the lake of fire forever
     
  11. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    Hi jcpro,
    So, as you see it, all those prophetic statements about being consumed by fire and flame are euphemistic of His anger and not real manifestations thereof. They cannot be both? And you know this how? :confused:
     
  12. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Makes you wonder at what point the image of Hell became simply a place where you're imprisoned/get used to it in time and it's essentially a man with a pitchfork and a red suit who is the gatekeeper there
     
  13. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    What the OT talked about in regards to the grave/the unrighteous going there and that being a place none of the righteoues were either destined to go or wanted to, it seems essentially the same equivalent of the "Lake of Fire" torment
     
  14. jcpro

    jcpro Newbie

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    I simply don't see eternal suffering there. I do see the end of natural life through fire.
     
  15. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    God is able..
     
  16. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    OK, I was simply hoping that you might point to something in Torah. Just seems like a whole lot of smoke and fire and flame and mountains melting and all that for it to come to nothing. Oh,well. Thanks. :wave:
     
  17. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    :thumbsup:
     
  18. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    I do too... the fires of hell may burn for ages of ages.. but it may just take that long for Satan to be consumed... he will be the last man standing in the fires of hell... but he will be consumed from within and burnt up into ashes before our eyes.. and with that death and hell are over...
     
  19. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Not certain as to whether or not the enemy, who is already immortal, will necessarily be burned up completely/be no more--as the entire concept of Hell was that it was made for Him/His angels as an eternal torment rather than a place where there'd eventually be rest in the form of silence.



    And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

    Rev. 14:9-11
    A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships thebeast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,10he, too, W
    ill drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."


    Rev. 19:2-3
    After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:

    “Hallelujah!

    Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, 2 for true and just are his judgments.

    He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants."
    3And again they shouted: "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.
    Rev. 20:10-15
    And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.




    Concerning the OP, something I thought was interesting to consider is why there is even a concept of Hell--and whereas many say it is about seeking to satisfy God's judgement, others are of the mindset that it's all about the Lord forever having something there for when He prepares to make other creations besides mankind. I can agree, when considering the reality of Hell, with the logic of others who're of the mindset that the Lord as a Creator will continue to create/make things and that we are the first of His works---with Hell being a warning to any future creations of what will occur to those who rebel against him. For more, here's something from the pastor of the church I grew up in...as seen here and here:


    Also,as Randy Alcorn said best in his series on Heaven (for a brief excerpt):
    An Ever-Expanding Government
    God says of the reigning Messiah, “Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end” (Isaiah 9:7). What does this mean? If it was simply that the Messiah’s reign will never cease, it would more likely say, “His government shall never end.” That’s true, of course, but it’s not the point of the text. If it means only that his government shall be all-encompassing, it might say, “Of his governmental authority there will be no limit.” That’s also true, but again it’s not the point. The key word in Isaiah 9:7 is increase. Nearly every major English translation of the Bible renders the Hebrew word marbiyth as “increase” or “expansion.” In other words, Christ’s government of the New Earth and the new universe will be ever-expanding.



    How could that be? Even if the New Earth were many times the size of the present one, wouldn’t every inch of it immediately or eventually be under his control and under ours as his representatives? If so, it wouldn’t be ever-expanding. So what can it mean? There are two ways in which a government can increase: (1) by expanding into previously ungoverned territories; or (2) by creating new territories (an option not available to us as humans).

    It may be that Christ’s government will always increase because he will continually create new worlds to govern (and, perhaps, new creatures to inhabit those new worlds). Or perhaps it will always increase because the new universe, though still finite, may be so vast that what Christ creates in a moment will never be exhaustively known by finite beings.

    From what we know of our current universe, with billions of galaxies containing millions of billions of stars and untold planets, this is certainly possible. The restoration of the current universe alone will provide unimaginable territories for us to explore and establish dominion over to God’s glory.


    Mankind’s fall may have initiated a divine moratorium on creation. By analogy, imagine a skilled artist who encounters difficulties with one great painting, his magnum opus. For the time being, he sets aside everything else to focus on this one work to bring it to completion. He’s still a creator, still an artist. A hundred other dream projects await him. Once his consuming central creation is finally done, he will return to his practiced habit of creating new works of art. (Of course, the analogy breaks down because God isn’t limited to one “painting,” one act of creation, at a time.)


    If Christ expands his rule by creating new worlds, whom will he send to govern them on his behalf? His redeemed people. Some may rule over towns, some cities, some planets, some solar systems or galaxies. Sound far-fetched? Not if we understand both Scripture and science. Consider how our current universe is constantly expanding. Each moment, the celestial geography dramatically increases. As old stars burn out, new stars are being born. Is God their creator? Yes.

    Suppose the new heavens also expand, creating new geography in space and ever increasing the size of God’s Kingdom. Will he fill that empty space with new creation? Will he dispatch exploratory and governing expeditions to these worlds, where his glory will be seen in new and magnificent creations?


    The proper question is not, Why would God create new worlds? That’s obvious. God is by nature a creator and ruler. He is glorified by what he creates and rules. He delights to delegate authority and dominion to his children to rule his creation on his behalf. “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end.”
    Is there anything in Scripture—anything we know about God—that would preclude him from expanding his creation and delegating authority to his children to rule over it? I can’t think of anything. Can you?



    The Saints Will Rule
    God’s throne is referred to forty times in the book of Revelation, appearing in sixteen of the twenty-two chapters. In The Biblical Doctrine of Heaven, Wilbur Smith writes, “The basic undertone of all that is revealed in the Apocalypse concerning the activities of heaven may be summed up in this one word throne.” Revelation isn’t primarily a book about the Antichrist or the Tribulation; it’s a book about God reigning. He reigns over the fallen universe now, and he will reign uncontested over the new universe, with mankind reigning by his side. Concerning the repeated references to our reigning over God’s universe, Dr. Henry Grattan Guinness writes, “We must not regard this as a figure of speech, but as the description of an actual reality.”

    Humans are made to be kingdom builders, but history demonstrates that when we try to build without God as King, our “utopias” become hell on Earth. “Tragically,” writes Bruce Milne, “humanity failed to fulfill its calling as God’s vice-regents. Instead we have tumbled down to the dust from which we were taken and groveled on the earth instead of reaching to the skies.”


    Pascal writes that man endures “the miseries of a dethroned monarch.” He asks, “What can this incessant craving, and this impotence of attainment mean, unless there was once a happiness belonging to man, of which only the faintest traces remain, in that void which he attempts to fill with everything within his reach?”11



    By rebelling against the King of kings, mankind abdicated dominion over the earth. But Christ will restore us to the throne occupied so briefly by Adam and Eve. He will hand over to us the Kingdom. He said to his disciples, “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom” (Luke 12:32).
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2012
  20. jcpro

    jcpro Newbie

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    The Torah is not concerned with the world to come. The focus of the Torah is on here and now.
     
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