• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Featured Torah and Grace. Everyone Has A Role And Doing Their Part In The Kingdom.

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by gospels, Mar 28, 2020.

  1. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,892
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Messiah was obedient to his father's Torah unto death. Messiah's law is our father's law.

    YHWH gave his law to Moses. Moses' law is YHWH's law.

    Yahshua was obedient unto death to the law that YHWH gave to Moses.

    Therefore Yahshua's law is the law of Moses.
     
  2. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

    +357
    United States
    Apostolic
    Single
    I have heard this argument also brother, but what should noted in Matt 5:18 is that the subject is the Law(the whole law) and that the Lord is saying till heaven and earth pass in the same way he did here:
    Luke 16:17
    And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

    He is saying that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away for one one jot or tittle of the Law to be fulfilled/completed/finished without the rest. He is saying that either every law written by the Hand of Moses will be finished by him(Christ) or none of it will.

    The Old Covenant is ready to vanish away Brother because it is only kept by certain sects of people until the end of the world, once this world ends and a New one is created only the Law of Christ and the Ten commandments will be kept. No other Law. I advise brother that you read the whole NT and see what God has said through his Apostles carefully examining every word in its context.

    God bless you brother
     
  3. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    +1,508
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The problem with your argument as I see it is that the dietary law specifying what is clean and what is unclean is not restricted to Moses alone. If you recall, Noah who preceded Moses distinguished between pairs of clean and unclean animals that he was to put on the ark per Gen 7:2.

    And after Jesus' resurrection, we find Peter whom Jesus himself discipled, still eating only clean foods. “By no means, Lord for I have never eaten anything that is unclean” (Acts 10:14). Peter's confusion is cleared up later in Acts 10:27-28 "And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean."
    Thus the food laws have not been abrogated and still apply today.

    Finally, your reference to Jesus' statement about what comes out of a man defiles him in Mark 7:15 is not related to the food laws at all. Note that Jesus was not addressing the dietary law as contained in the written law. Instead he was condemning the ORAL LAW of the Pharisees in Mark 7:3 which they clinged to out of their tradition. V.7 makes clear the focus of Jesus' condemnation: in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. Jesus was condemning the oral tradition of the Pharisees which are the commandments of men - not the commandments of God.
     
  4. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    +1,508
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Thanks for your reply. We can always agree to disagree. The whole law still exists. The whole law as contained in the old covenant is growing old and is ready to pass away. The 10 Commandments are part of the law but the scriptures state that not one jot or tittle of the law will vanish until heaven and earth pass away. Thus, all of the law including the 10 Commandments are still applicable today.
    A simple question to ask is why did Peter continue to observe the dietary law after the resurrection? Why did Paul continue to observe the Sabbath and feast days? The actions of the Apostles confirm what they wrote in the Word.
     
  5. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

    +357
    United States
    Apostolic
    Single
    The Ten commandments were not Part of the Mosaic law, they have always existed. Their separation from the Mosaic law is clearly shown in that the Ten were placed inside the Ark signifying they are eternal while the Mosaic law was only place on the side of the Ark signifying it was only for time. Only the Old covenant(book of the Covenant/handwriting of ordinances) was finished as it was every law written by Moses's hand.

    Peter was sent to those of the Circumcision and continued in many of their customs, even having to be corrected by the Lord for it(Acts 10) and by Paul(Galatians 2). It seems that not everything was revealed to the Apostles right away, but when it was revealed it was very clear.
    Paul observed the Sabbath because that is part of God's eternal moral Law and will never change. He also was about to Sacrifice animals, but we see later on that he was corrected by the Lord and shown that we have no need to Sacrifice any animal since Christ was the only Sacrifice that we will ever need. Paul said that the Handwriting of ordinances was finished and that included the feasts and feast day sabbaths(Colossians 2).

    We find in God's word that the Apostles were consistently shown the truth of the NT Law and that the whole counsel of God was in the end fully made known to them.
     
  6. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    +1,508
    Non-Denom
    Married
    So what about clean and unclean? Clearly, the difference was from at least the time of Noah. What about sacrifices? Abel and Cain were obviously told what were proper sacrifices. One brother obeyed and the other didn't. One cannot break up and separate the law into convenient pieces as you and I have cited the same scripture as no jot or tittle of the law shall vanish until heaven and earth have passed away. Heaven and earth are still here, so the Law in its entirely still exists.

    When scripture gives us the reason, it is folly to make up a reason of our own. Peter himself gave the reason for his dream about clean and unclean being applied to people/gentiles - not food. There is no record in the entirety of the NT that Peter or the rest of the apostles changed their dietary habits.

    The Sabbath is indeed eternal so why do most churches worship on Sunday? For the record the Roman Catholic Church substituted Sunday as the "Lord's Day" in effect making it as the Sabbath day without having any scriptural warrant whatsoever. Protestants merrily follow along giving no thought to it at all
    - despite the Sabbath day being eternal.

    If Paul thought the ordinances were finished, why did he continue to observe the Passover? Read Col 2 carefully again. V.16 states let no one (outside the body of Christ) judge you. The judgment of outsiders here pertains to the fact that the Galatian believers are in fact observing food/drink, feast days, new moons and Sabbaths which are commanded by God. How do we know this? Because the very next verse states that they ARE a shadow of things to come - NOT - WERE a shadow of things to come. If the Galatians were not observing these commandments of God, then the utilization of the past tense "were" would have been appropriate but the fact that they "are" still a shadow of things to come dictates that the Galatians were in the habit of still practicing God's ordained meeting times - as a shadow of things yet to come.

    To the very end of the scriptures, we see no record at all of the Apostles ever departing from the law based upon their actions. If you have found one, please cite it for me.
     
  7. gospels

    gospels He has written my name on His heart! Supporter

    +1,378
    India
    Christian
    Single
    The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Romans 14:22

    There are times we need to follow this rather than argue/oppose each other all the time. This is what this OP is about. God is able to do His work through all His word: Torah, prophets, and gospels. He knows who needs what. We need to humble ourselves, trust Him, and learn to be silent at times with that understanding.
     
  8. solid_core

    solid_core Well-Known Member

    +1,252
    Austria
    Protestant
    Single
    The context of the verse is about eating meat and about drinking alcohol, not about the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant.

    The verse you quote is about faith that you are allowed to eat and drink and smoke or whatever, but you should keep it quite. Its not about theological issues.
     
  9. gospels

    gospels He has written my name on His heart! Supporter

    +1,378
    India
    Christian
    Single
    Eating meat and observing days for some people comes from Torah.

    For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Romans 14:15

    So can we grieve our brothers in other matters?
     
  10. solid_core

    solid_core Well-Known Member

    +1,252
    Austria
    Protestant
    Single
    Yes, we can grieve our brothers but telling them the truth about their false beliefs.

    Paul was doing it all the time, read for example the Letter to Galatians. But he never criticized somebody for eating meat, its not an important issue.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  11. gospels

    gospels He has written my name on His heart! Supporter

    +1,378
    India
    Christian
    Single
    We need to understand the importance of Torah as much as we need to understand importance of the gospel of grace. There are great insights about Christ in Torah which many of us are lacking. Some of us need that knowledge to see those aspects of God that He revealed in His word so we can better understand the gospel of grace. So everyone is reaching out to different audiences. The 144000 from each tribe that will be sealed in the coming age are different from the Paul’s audience. Paul is mostly addressing new believers. God knows what He needs from each one before His coming and He will prepare us accordingly. So we don’t need to oppose each other if we are already in Christ. God gave a different task to each believer and let each share their gift in peace and understanding and trust in the Holy Spirit that is leading each believer.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  12. solid_core

    solid_core Well-Known Member

    +1,252
    Austria
    Protestant
    Single
    The New Covenant does not include Torah. You are mixing two different covenants together.

    1. The Old Covenant was given to Israel only, not to other nations.

    2. The Old Covenant ended even for Israel in the 1st century. The New Covenant is given to both Israel and all other nations from that time for ever.
     
  13. gospels

    gospels He has written my name on His heart! Supporter

    +1,378
    India
    Christian
    Single
    Yes, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t study Torah or not listen to anyone sharing insight about it. Some people want to honor God by adopting certain lifestyle given in Torah. It is between God and that person. If anyone is in Christ and led by the Spirit, we have to honor the message shared by other believer in Christ but no need to oppose them if they doesn’t want to follow it because someone else might need that message.
     
  14. solid_core

    solid_core Well-Known Member

    +1,252
    Austria
    Protestant
    Single
    If somebody wants to study something that is not for us, then thats their decision. But this is public forum so we can talk about it and about its implications.

    Also, most of "torah people" are trying to teach its still bounding for us. And this is something we must stand against firmly and do not let them take away our new covenants's principles and freedoms we have in Christ.
     
  15. gospels

    gospels He has written my name on His heart! Supporter

    +1,378
    India
    Christian
    Single
    No one in Christ, led by the Holy Spirit, will bound another to Torah. They are concerned that some might get blinded by grace, grace, and grace of the gospels. So they are trying to share the knowledge and importance of God’s commandments. Debate is okay but it grieves my spirit to watch born again believers in Christ constantly opposing each other regarding these concepts instead of honoring each other whom God has already welcomed.
     
  16. solid_core

    solid_core Well-Known Member

    +1,252
    Austria
    Protestant
    Single
    A constant opposition is understandable in a public, international platform that allows people of all possible views and opinions to come together and discuss (well, there is some censorship though, even on this site).
     
  17. gospels

    gospels He has written my name on His heart! Supporter

    +1,378
    India
    Christian
    Single
    Yes, I understand yet I’m trying to inspire and encourage some peace and love and unity amidst all that, in a little possible way that I can.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  18. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

    +2,155
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    How can you even say that?
     
  19. solid_core

    solid_core Well-Known Member

    +1,252
    Austria
    Protestant
    Single
    Its a common Christianity, not sure why you are surprised. Nothing extraordinary about it.
     
  20. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

    +2,155
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    Does not mean it is correct. Yeshua taught Torah. Love God and your neighbor is Torah. Also, what does it say regarding the New Covenant in the TaNaKh?
     
Loading...