LDS TOP 25 PROBLEMS WITH JOSEPH SMITH’S FIRST VISION STORY

[Daniel Marsh]

TOP 25 PROBLEMS WITH JOSEPH SMITH’S FIRST VISION STORY
Top 25 Problems with Joseph Smith’s First Vision Story

 

[Pavel Mosko]

TOP 25 PROBLEMS WITH JOSEPH SMITH’S FIRST VISION STORY
Top 25 Problems with Joseph Smith’s First Vision Story

Very interesting. I've heard some other claims not mentioned. The best one is that Smith illiterate and at the time there was a minister living in his area that was writing a kind of religious fiction. We would actually almost call it "Fan Fiction" in today's lingo, but it was of the Bible, basically writing a completely fictitious biblical like narrative in the style of King James etc. and supposedly that manuscript was stolen, only for the book of Mormon to appear a few years later and lots of material in it obviously being a plagiarism of the earlier manuscript.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Foundational Texts of Mormonism: Examining Major Early Sources
edited by Mark Ashurst-McGee, Robin Scott Jensen, Sharalyn D. Howcroft

He wrote letters in his own handwriting.

"
In his earliest history, in one of the rare passages we have in his own handwriting, Joseph Smith wrote of learning to read and write despite limited formal education: “It required the exertions of all that were able to render any assistance for the support of the Family therefore we were deprived of the bennifit of an education suffice it to say I was mearly instructid in reading writing and the ground rules of Arithmatic which const[it]uted my whole literary acquirements.”
The majority of the time, Joseph Smith relied on scribes and clerks to compose, copy, or take down his dictation of the thousands of pages attributed to him, including sacred texts, correspondence, journals, histories, administrative records, and other documents. The scarcity of surviving records he personally wrote gives added significance to their pages." https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/documents-in-joseph-smiths-handwriting

Latest Volume of The Joseph Smith Papers Portrays a Different Side of Joseph Smith - Church News and Events
The Joseph Smith Papers: Editorial Method
Joseph Smith's reference library - FairMormon
Reading in general in early 1800's

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Cool that looks like a lot of different sources. Mormons were big in the high desert town I grew up in California, not so much where I have been living since moving out of the state in 2014.

 

[Peter1000]

Very interesting. I've heard some other claims not mentioned. The best one is that Smith illiterate and at the time there was a minister living in his area that was writing a kind of religious fiction. We would actually almost call it "Fan Fiction" in today's lingo, but it was of the Bible, basically writing a completely fictitious biblical like narrative in the style of King James etc. and supposedly that manuscript was stolen, only for the book of Mormon to appear a few years later and lots of material in it obviously being a plagiarism of the earlier manuscript.

Joseph Smith is one of the most focused on persons in the world. Almost down to his every day movements from 1820 to 1844. So believe me if he had stolen a book from a minister, writing a fictitious religious book, that would have been covered extensively by critics of the church. So don't be worried, if it has not been covered yet, it didn't happen. Save yourself a lot of study time of wasted time trying to discover something that didn't happen.

 

[Peter1000]

Very interesting. I've heard some other claims not mentioned. The best one is that Smith illiterate and at the time there was a minister living in his area that was writing a kind of religious fiction. We would actually almost call it "Fan Fiction" in today's lingo, but it was of the Bible, basically writing a completely fictitious biblical like narrative in the style of King James etc. and supposedly that manuscript was stolen, only for the book of Mormon to appear a few years later and lots of material in it obviously being a plagiarism of the earlier manuscript.

This has nothing to do with the 25 problems with the first vision.

25? Are you sure there were not more?

 

[Peter1000]

Foundational Texts of Mormonism: Examining Major Early Sources
edited by Mark Ashurst-McGee, Robin Scott Jensen, Sharalyn D. Howcroft

He wrote letters in his own handwriting.

"
In his earliest history, in one of the rare passages we have in his own handwriting, Joseph Smith wrote of learning to read and write despite limited formal education: “It required the exertions of all that were able to render any assistance for the support of the Family therefore we were deprived of the bennifit of an education suffice it to say I was mearly instructid in reading writing and the ground rules of Arithmatic which const[it]uted my whole literary acquirements.”
The majority of the time, Joseph Smith relied on scribes and clerks to compose, copy, or take down his dictation of the thousands of pages attributed to him, including sacred texts, correspondence, journals, histories, administrative records, and other documents. The scarcity of surviving records he personally wrote gives added significance to their pages." https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/site/documents-in-joseph-smiths-handwriting

Latest Volume of The Joseph Smith Papers Portrays a Different Side of Joseph Smith - Church News and Events
The Joseph Smith Papers: Editorial Method
Joseph Smith's reference library - FairMormon
Reading in general in early 1800's

And your point is?

 

[Peter1000]

TOP 25 PROBLEMS WITH JOSEPH SMITH’S FIRST VISION STORY
Top 25 Problems with Joseph Smith’s First Vision Story

Top 25, I am shocked you would stop at the top 25?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Joseph Smith is one of the most focused on persons in the world. Almost down to his every day movements from 1820 to 1844. So believe me if he had stolen a book from a minister, writing a fictitious religious book, that would have been covered extensively by critics of the church. So don't be worried, if it has not been covered yet, it didn't happen. Save yourself a lot of study time of wasted time trying to discover something that didn't happen.

There are critics did have brought that up.
Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Topical Index A-G
Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Topical Index A-G
Fall of the Book of Abraham
The Solomon Spalding Theory - Chapter 9 of Joseph Smith's Plagiarism
Where Did Joseph Smith Get His Ideas for the Book of Mormon?
View of the Hebrews
Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Topical Index S-Z
Issue 89 - Salt Lake City Messenger
Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Topical Index A-G
Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Topical Index

 

[He is the way]

Very interesting. I've heard some other claims not mentioned. The best one is that Smith illiterate and at the time there was a minister living in his area that was writing a kind of religious fiction. We would actually almost call it "Fan Fiction" in today's lingo, but it was of the Bible, basically writing a completely fictitious biblical like narrative in the style of King James etc. and supposedly that manuscript was stolen, only for the book of Mormon to appear a few years later and lots of material in it obviously being a plagiarism of the earlier manuscript.

That manuscript was found and is not even close to the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith did not use any manuscript, not even the Bible, while dictating the Book of Mormon. You Spalding's work here:

Manuscript Found: The Complete Original "Spaulding Manuscript" by Solomon Spaulding

 

[Pavel Mosko]

That manuscript was found and is not even close to the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith did not use any manuscript, not even the Bible, while dictating the Book of Mormon. You Spalding's work here:

Manuscript Found: The Complete Original "Spaulding Manuscript" by Solomon Spaulding

Thanks years ago, I ran across article explaining that while there were parallels the two books didn't match but I didn't remember the details. The original claim I recall, came from my father, talking to a friend who had an old 1911 encyclopedia Britannica that was pretty emphatic on the claim.


But anyway even if much of Smith's story actually ended up being true as far as dictating the Book of Mormon etc. it would not make LDS any more attractive to myself and other Christians who hold to classical Christian orthodoxy found in the Nicene Creed etc. It would simply put Mormonism in the same category as Islam and the Koran, Gnosticism, and various New Age movements that have their sacred text dictated by autonomic writing, channeling, dreams, visions and angelic encounters.

 

[He is the way]

Thanks years ago, I ran across article explaining that while there were parallels the two books didn't match but I didn't remember the details. The original claim I recall, came from my father, talking to a friend who had an old 1911 encyclopedia Britannica that was pretty emphatic on the claim.


But anyway even if much of Smith's story actually ended up being true as far as dictating the Book of Mormon etc. it would not make LDS any more attractive to myself and other Christians who hold to classical Christian orthodoxy found in the Nicene Creed etc. It would simply put Mormonism in the same category as Islam and the Koran, Gnosticism, and various New Age movements that have their sacred text dictated by autonomic writing, channeling, dreams, visions and angelic encounters.

I can understand your feelings and that is fine, but I do not see The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter day Saints as being in the same category as Islam and the Koran, Gnosticism, and various New Age movements.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

This has nothing to do with the 25 problems with the first vision.

25? Are you sure there were not more?

Hi Peter, if you consider the witnesses to the BOM saw the plates with their spiritual "eyes" and some of them defeacted from the Church you worship in. There is likely more problems.
Personally, when there are humans involved there will be headaches --- just ask my wife.
Keep me in prayer, major headaches and back pain from virus, no taste of food.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Thanks years ago, I ran across article explaining that while there were parallels the two books didn't match but I didn't remember the details. The original claim I recall, came from my father, talking to a friend who had an old 1911 encyclopedia Britannica that was pretty emphatic on the claim.


But anyway even if much of Smith's story actually ended up being true as far as dictating the Book of Mormon etc. it would not make LDS any more attractive to myself and other Christians who hold to classical Christian orthodoxy found in the Nicene Creed etc. It would simply put Mormonism in the same category as Islam and the Koran, Gnosticism, and various New Age movements that have their sacred text dictated by autonomic writing, channeling, dreams, visions and angelic encounters.

Those ideas have been around for awhile now.

Muhammad and Joseph Smith, Jr.: Spirit-Born Brothers by Paul Derengowski (Author)

The American Muhammad Kindle Edition
by Alvin Schmidt (Author)

Islam and Mormonism - Wikipedia

Mormon Muslim

Mormonism; the Islam of America: Bigotry or Painful Truth?: The Joseph Smith's controversy by Bruce Kinney (Author)

MORMONISM AND ISLAM
Hans Thimme.

What are the similarities between Mormonism and Islam? | CARM.org

Mormons and Muslims
A Case of Matching Fingerprints
By Dennis Kirkland · 2008

The American Muhammad
Joseph Smith, Founder of Mormonism
By Alvin J. Schmidt · 2013

Mormonism
The Islam of America
By Bruce Kinney · 1912

Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon?
The Spalding Enigma
By Wayne L. Cowdrey, Howard A. Davis, Arthur Vanick · 2005

 

[Daniel Marsh]

And your point is?

JS himself said or wrote that he can Read and Write.