Tonuges

[Antman_05]

So whats the view on tonuges as it stoped?

Seeing that we have Churches with ppl speaking in Tonuges

 

[cygnusx1]

So whats the view on tonuges as it stoped?

Seeing that we have Churches with ppl speaking in Tonuges

Find me one that speaks a Language , UNLEARNT!!!

I used to "speak in tongues" .............. until I found out that they are languages! ...............

 

[Croooz]

Find me one that speaks a Language , UNLEARNT!!!

I used to "speak in tongues" .............. until I found out that they are languages! ...............

Languages? How so?

 

[cygnusx1]

Languages? How so?

3 reasons ..........


1. On Pentecost men RECOGNISED what was being said ........ Acts


2. The Corinthians were instructed to seek the "sister gift of tongues" the gift of interperatation .

3. When God gives Tongues , He gives languages (Genesis , Babel)

 

[rnmomof7]

I think that there are Charismatic believers that are reformed in their outlook.

I have met a Reformed Baptist that was a non secessionist (believed the gifts still operate)

I am always amazed at the number of Calvinists (Presbyterians to be specific ) I know that were at one time charismatic .
I do not ask if they still pray in tongues, it seems to me that would not be a proper inquiry .
I have come to believe that Charismatics have a natural affinity for Calvinism because we both have a very strong sense of the holiness of God and desire to praise him .
Calvinism focuses on the sovereignty of God in all things

 

[Croooz]

I think that there are Charismatic believers that are reformed in their outlook.

I have met a Reformed Baptist that was a non secessionist (believed the gifts still operate)

I am always amazed at the number of Calvinists (Presbyterians to be specific ) I know that were at one time charismatic .
I do not ask if they still pray in tongues, it seems to me that would not be a proper inquiry .
I have come to believe that Charismatics have a natural affinity for Calvinism because we both have a very strong sense of the holiness of God and desire to praise him .
Calvinism focuses on the sovereignty of God in all things

I come from a charismatic Catholic background, so I guess I agree. I currently speak in tongues but after the revival at our church others have begun and it's not the same. What I mean by that is it literally sounds like "ba ba ba la la la sa sa sa oh Lord...sa sa sa la la la.......". The group where I received the gift had it. Our youth leader actually had a gentleman ask her where she learned his native tongue. He was from a tribe in the continent of Africa and was in tears. I'm still waiting for such an experience.

Please understand that I am not judging my fellow Christians...I'm stating my belief that the tongues they speak are not a spiritual gift but an intellectual one. I've heard tongues which sounded spanish but were portugese. I would love to go overseas and hear some speak in tongues and it's american.

 

[rnmomof7]

I come from a charismatic Catholic background, so I guess I agree. I currently speak in tongues but after the revival at our church others have begun and it's not the same. What I mean by that is it literally sounds like "ba ba ba la la la sa sa sa oh Lord...sa sa sa la la la.......". The group where I received the gift had it. Our youth leader actually had a gentleman ask her where she learned his native tongue. He was from a tribe in the continent of Africa and was in tears. I'm still waiting for such an experience.

Please understand that I am not judging my fellow Christians...I'm stating my belief that the tongues they speak are not a spiritual gift but an intellectual one. I've heard tongues which sounded spanish but were portugese. I would love to go overseas and hear some speak in tongues and it's american.

Discernment is not judgment
My formerly Charismatic Presbyterian Pastor does not believe his tongues were real . I would have no way of knowing, but I believe that God is sovereign in all things, including spiritual gifts.

 

[JamesCarter]

I am Reformed, and I speak in tongues. I find the exercise of my gift as the gracious Spirit gives the utterance to be very edifying. I'm not certain that tongues of necessity must be earthly languages. Possibly, they could be languages of angels, i.e., a heavenly language. This would still require interpretation. A sovereign God can provide the gift in a number of ways, and it seems imprudent to me to try and limit Him or box Him in. I have no doubt that tongues are genuine. I was raised in a Pentecostal church, and I have witnessed God's Spirit moving dramatically on occasion. I do not agree with the Pentecostals' pneumatology in every instance, but I find no fault with them on believing the gifts, including glossolalia, are for today. This is not to discount the possibility of spurious manifestations, but I have witnessed too much from to many Godly saints to be dissuaded from believing what I believe Scriptures to plainly teach.

 

[Antman_05]

So is there 2 types of tonuges How types are there ?

 

[JamesCarter]

So is there 2 types of tonuges How types are there ?

The only point I was trying to make was that tongues perhaps may be in languages of men and/or angels. I was responding to a previous post that seemed to suggest that tongues were always in known human languages. In 1Cor. 13:1, Paul writes, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." I believe there is only one type of gift of tongues, but God can manifest the gift in diverse ways and for varied reasons.

 

[St.Augustine]

The only point I was trying to make was that tongues perhaps may be in languages of men and/or angels.

The gift of tongues is earthly, why is angelic language the language of angels? Because only angels speak it

 

[JamesCarter]

The gift of tongues is earthly, why is angelic language the language of angels? Because only angels speak it

You are probably better at exegesis than I, so I'll let you deal with what First Corinthians 13:1 means in the context of Paul's discourses on glossolalia. I am simply suggesting that the possibility exists that a sovereign God could give the gift in a heavenly language. I don't know if He indeed does, or what form heavenly languages might take. Frankly, the point is speculative and is of no great interest to me. Again, I made it to underscore that just because someone's gift does not appear to have properties of human language, that does not of necessity indicate it isn't a genuine manifestation. What I do know is that the gift of tongues exists today, and I experience it.

 

[St.Augustine]

What I do know is that the gift of tongues exists today, and I experience it.

Brother,

The gift of tongues ceased many many years ago, I do not know what you experience but I know that it certainly is not the Biblical gift of tongues.

 

[JamesCarter]

Brother,

The gift of tongues ceased many many years ago, I do not know what you experience but I know that it certainly is not the Biblical gift of tongues.

We'll just have to disagree on this point. From my understanding of Scripture and the experiences that I have, I am totally comfortable in saying that my gift is genuine. If you care to enlighten me on how you can dogmatically assert that the gift of tongues ceased many years ago and my experiences are spurious, I would humbly listen. What makes you so certain? Can't a sovereign God give gifts as and when He pleases or does your theological system preclude Him such latitude?

 

[~Heavens_Bride~]

I believe the gift of tongues is alive today...but I fail to say 'alive and well'.

Whereas I have spoken and have heard others speak in tongues, and believe it to be genuine and for today...I also believe the hysteria and 'hoopla' of the 'blah blah moo moo' speeech today to be overkill and not driven by God, but driven by a facination with 'Holy Spirit Power' and a desire to have an overwhelming experience.

Use descernment as you operate or witness this, an/ or any other gifts for that matter.

 

[Croooz]

Brother,

The gift of tongues ceased many many years ago, I do not know what you experience but I know that it certainly is not the Biblical gift of tongues.

Prove it. Where can I find YOUR assertion in the Bible? Which translation would I need to use to "know that it certainly is not the Biblical gift of tongues"? Perhaps not the Biblical gift of tongues..how about the Spritual gift?

 

[St.Augustine]

We'll just have to disagree on this point. From my understanding of Scripture and the experiences that I have, I am totally comfortable in saying that my gift is genuine. If you care to enlighten me on how you can dogmatically assert that the gift of tongues ceased many years ago and my experiences are spurious, I would humbly listen. What makes you so certain? Can't a sovereign God give gifts as and when He pleases or does your theological system preclude Him such latitude?

The first step in understanding the gift of tongues is to ascertain what specifically tongues are. The Greek word used is also translated languages and it is this that describes it best. It is the gift of languages. The book of Acts clearly establishes that biblical tongues were languages (Acts 2:6, 8, 11) and there is no solid Biblical reason to conclude that the tongues of Acts and Corinthians were in any way different (other than being a different foreign language)! So we can therefore, safely define the gift of tongues as: the supernatural ability to speak a foreign language, which one does not already know.

I believe that the sign gifts have indeed ceased. Why? To understand the gift of tongues is to proceed teleologically. What is the end/purpose of the gift of tongues? Once we know this the decision becomes much easier. The Bible points solely to one purpose of tongues and that is to be a sign. It is possible to distinguish 3 sign purposes of tongues: (1) a sign of cursing, (2) a sign of blessing, and (3) a sign of authority.

I will deal with each in turn.

Cursing

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

On the day of Pentecost God began a new dispensation, that of the church. Because of Israel's rejection of Jesus as Christ he cast them aside and began a new programme. In the past tongues were a sign to Israel of cursing hence Paul's quotation of Isaiah. Hence Barnes states: "This passage ['With men of other tongues'], where it occurs in Isaiah, means, that God would teach the rebellious and refractory Jews submission to himself, by punishing them amidst a people of another language, by removing them to a land - the land of Chaldea - where they would hear only a language that to them would be unintelligible and barbarous."

So the sign gifts were a sign of cursing to Israel.

Blessing
With the case of Cornelius in Acts 10 Peter states:

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

So the sign with Cornelius of speaking in tongues was a sign to Israel of God blessing gentiles "repentance unto life". Indeed the flipside to the setting aside of Israel was the begininig of the church where both Jew AND Gentile are equal. So the sign gifts were a sign of GENTILE blessing.

Authority
The Moody Handbook of Theology states “Tongues were a part of the miraculous era of Christ and the apostles and were necessary, along with the gift of miracles, as an authenticating sign of the apostles (2 Corinthians 12:12)” We see this here:

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

I hope this helps you

 

[Croooz]

I don't see how this proves that tongues are not current as of today. I can see with the cursing however with the blessing and authority...what gives there? Are we not to have authority or blessings?

What of these verses:

Mark 16:17
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

So then are we not to expect these signs to follow for the Great Commission?

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
7To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

So then all these gifts are for not? This was only for that time? When exactly did the Spirit decide not to "apportion" to anyone else?


1 Corinthians 12:28-31
28And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

So then are you saying that out of all the gifts only tongues are no longer legit? Or are you saying that since we no longer have authority that we also no longer have apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles....."various kinds of tongues"?

1 Corinthians 13:8
*8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away

Are you saying that the tongues have now ceased? Thereby knowledge should have also passed away....

1 Corinthians 14
***1Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. 6Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

Apparently the only problem with tongues is in having an interpreter...

I can't say that the verses you presented proved anything. Please explain how in these verses are we to believe that tongues aren't still being given. When exactly did the gift stop? What other gifts are no longer being given and where can I find this information?

 

[JamesCarter]

Thank you St. Augustine for your thoughts on glossolalia. I just want to say that I sincerely appreciate your considerable efforts in trying to get me to see the truth as you perceive it. You assert that the sign gifts are no longer necessary, therefore, God has discontinued giving them. I too believe tongues in particular will cease to be given by God - "when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away" I Cor.13:10. Tongues and the sign gifts will terminate at the second coming of Christ. I can not imagine a time in church history when the gifts of the Spirit as outlined in I Corinthians chapter 12 are needed any more than they are today. If any generation needs to witness the manifestations of God's grace and power, it is this secular one.

Absent any final exegetical reason to believe that tongues is no loner given, I retain my position. On a practical level, in prayer, God gave me a gift that transcends my understanding. I find the experience to be consistent with Scriptural teaching. I have witnessed many Godly saints to whom God has graciously given the same gift. He is the sovereign Lord who gives the gifts as He wills. With my exegesis of Scripture and my experience of the Spirit, I am reluctant to develop or to subscribe to any theological framework that would limit the Almighty.

I praise God for the outbreak of the pentecostal/charismatic movements in the 20th century. Have there been abuses? Sadly, there have been far too many. But, as I Corinthians 14 suggests, there were some misapplication and abuses in the 1st century too. Despite the spuriousness and the abuse, there is a genuine reality that has been experienced by many. On a personal note, I don't want you to think that tongues is the ultimate in my spiritual walk. I am much more interested in manifesting the fruits of the Spirit than the gift of tongues. My water baptism remains my greatest Christian memory and experience, not the reception of the gift of tongues. I thank God for graciously giving me the gift, but I am not preoccupied by it. I do not think the gift is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, nor do I believe the gift should necessarily be resident in every Spirit-filled believer.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll leave you with the words of Paul in I Corinthians 14:39:
"So my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues."

 

[Lockheed]

I am simply suggesting that the possibility exists that a sovereign God could give the gift in a heavenly language.

What God could do is not in question, what God does do is another thing all together.

Simply saying "God could..." doesn't mean God has given some 'gift in a heavenly language'. In 1 Cor 13:1 Paul is not claiming that there is a "tongue of angels" that people can speak in, he's using the phrase as hyperbole in contrast with not having love. No where else does Paul speak of such a thing being possible.

The tongues spoken of in Acts 2 are clearly human languages. They're given for a very distinct purpose which we see in that same chapter, namely, to announce that the Messiah has come and salvation is available through Him, AND that the Jews missed the boat.

How so? Let me show you.

Most charismatics dwell on three chapters in 1 Corinthians to provide support for their claims. Let's keep in mind however that 1 Corinthians was written not as a tongue-speaking manual, but a letter of correction to a church with many, many problems. The church in Corinth had a member who was involved with his father's wife, they were not taking care of their members, people were speaking out of turn in the service... in essense they were a good representative picture of the modern non-denom/charismatic church in America.

Let's find out what Paul says the PURPOSE of tongues is:

1 Cor 14:21-22
In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
​

Here Paul expresses the purpose of tongues, "a sign... to unbelievers". Paul quotes Isaiah as support for this fact. Paul is quoting the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. The verse in our Bible today says:

Isaiah 28:11
Indeed, He will speak to this people through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
​

It is important to recognize here that in both cases tongues is not some 'angelic language'. Consider for a moment that no two charismatics speak in the same "tongue", can this be the "tongues of angels"? Does every angel speaks in a different language?!

Note that the purpose of tongues, both in 1 Cornithians and in the prophecy, is to "speak to this people" in "a foreign tongue". We see this occuring clearly in Acts 2, where it is lowly fishermen speaking in the languages of people from all over the world. It's imperitive that we seek to harmonize 1 Corinthians and Acts, rather than suggesting they're referring to different gifts.

This is a message to the Jews that they're under judgment, the Messiah came folks, and you killed Him!

Thus Paul writes that tongues is a sign to unbelievers.

"What about 1 Cor 14:2!?" I hear someone say...

1 Cor 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
​

Again, keeping the PURPOSE of tongues in view here, we must consider what this verse means. Who were the men in Acts 2 speaking to?

Acts 2:8-11
"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
​

The men in Acts 2 were "speaking of the mighty deeds of God", that is they were praising God. Tongues then is a praise language (as opposed to a prayer language) and it is not meant for personal prayer, but as a public declaration of the deeds of God, just as 1 Cor 14:2 states.

It is apparent then that "this people" spoken of in Isaiah and fulfilled in Acts and elsewhere is none other than the Jews of the first century. The Biblical declared purpose of tongues is to announce judgment on the 1st Century Jews, which since the destruction of the temple are long since past.

Finally, it is God's command that there be no tongues without interpetation in the church. Paul is very clear on this.

19however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

37If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.
38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
​

So even if you dismiss the whole "tongues was a sign for unbelievers", the common practice of mass singing in tongues, or even the outbreak of tongues by vocal women in the first row (1 Cor 14:34 instructs us about those ladies ) is not allowed in Scripture. How many churches who pratice tongue-speaking actually follow God's commands relating to it?

Eagerly desire the greater gifts... the greatest of these is love.